Asexuality is not an orientation

For discussion of general issues pertaining to asexuality.
PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 07 Jul 2015, 10:07

I agree with you, I've said that on some parts

where I question is ..with me you know where you stand...with your approach it can be anything to anybody but mostly depending on you as a person as to wether something is valid to one but not valid to another

That cannot be seen as helpfull and your list of what is acceptable/recognised is just the same as mine in that to some one outside of that list may feel they are being oppressed and denied so your "open list" is only as open as you see it whilst purporting not to be restrictive...it's a bit like saying Ciri has a chance of running for the team to peoples faces but behind their backs saying...not in a million years

Quite often those who claim to be more open orientation minded than others..are just as closed minded.

And this is the problem...when you treat orientations like "everyone gets a medal" then you must maintain never to say some one elses identity for their own orientation is not an orientation..to do so paints yourself into a corner whilst kidding yourself what you really mean is openness based on your description and not openness at all.

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 07 Jul 2015, 10:18

No. As usual, you're not reading properly. I've never said "it can be anything to anybody". I've said the opposite. Try re-reading.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 07 Jul 2015, 10:27

selective viewing is your speciality Michael

Your the one who raised the three to a huge list but stopped it at the ones you personally disagree with

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 07 Jul 2015, 10:45

I stopped at the ones that aren't orientations, because they don't satisfy the definitions of being orientations. But I wouldn't expect you to grasp simple points like that. So to make you happy, I'll print out all 32 possibilities even if they aren't all orientations. Note that I'm only dealing with anti-sexuality / non-anti-sexuality. If you included anti-romanticism / non- then you'd have to double this list again.
Spoiler
1. antisexual aromantic asexual - someone who is against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone and is also not sexually attracted to anyone.
2. non-antisexual aromantic asexual - someone who is not against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone and is also not sexually attracted to anyone.
3. antisexual aromantic homosexual - someone who is against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone but who is sexually attracted to the same gender.
4. non-antisexual aromantic homosexual - someone who is not against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone but who is sexually attracted to the same gender.
5. antisexual aromantic heterosexual - someone who is against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone but who is sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
6. non-antisexual aromantic heterosexual - someone who is not against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone but who is sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
7. antisexual aromantic bisexual - someone who is against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone but who is sexually attracted to both genders.
8. non-antisexual aromantic bisexual - someone who is not against sex, is not romantically attracted to anyone but who is sexually attracted to both genders.
9. antisexual homoromantic asexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender but who is not sexually attracted to anyone.
10. non-antisexual homoromantic asexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender but who is not sexually attracted to anyone.
11. antisexual homoromantic homosexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender and is also sexually attracted to the same gender.
12. non-antisexual homoromantic homosexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender and is also sexually attracted to the same gender.
13. antisexual homoromantic heterosexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender but who is sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
14. non-antisexual homoromantic heterosexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender but who is sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
15. antisexual homoromantic bisexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender but who is sexually attracted to both genders.
16. non-antisexual homoromantic bisexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the same gender but who is sexually attracted to both genders.
17. antisexual heteroromantic asexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender but who is not sexually attracted to anyone.
18. non-antisexual heteroromantic asexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender but who is not sexually attracted to anyone.
19. antisexual heteroromantic homosexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender but who is sexually attracted to the same gender.
20. non-antisexual heteroromantic homosexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender but who is sexually attracted to the same gender.
21. antisexual heteroromantic heterosexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender and is also sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
22. non-antisexual heteroromantic heterosexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender and is also sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
23. antisexual heteroromantic bisexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender but who is sexually attracted to both genders.
24. non-antisexual heteroromantic bisexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to the opposite gender but who is sexually attracted to both genders.
25. antisexual biromantic asexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders but who is not sexually attracted to anyone.
26. non-antisexual biromantic asexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders but who is not sexually attracted to anyone.
27. antisexual biromantic homosexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders but who is sexually attracted to the same gender.
28. non-antisexual biromantic homosexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders but who is sexually attracted to the same gender.
29. antisexual biromantic heterosexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders but who is sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
30. non-antisexual biromantic heterosexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders but who is sexually attracted to the opposite gender.
31. antisexual biromantic bisexual - someone who is against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders and is also sexually attracted to both genders.
32. non-antisexual biromantic bisexual - someone who is not against sex, is romantically attracted to both genders and is also sexually attracted to both genders.


The Python:
Spoiler
sexual_orientations = ["asexual","homosexual","heterosexual","bisexual"]
romantic_orientations = [x.replace("sexual","romantic") for x in sexual_orientations]
sexual_descriptions = ["not sexually attracted to anyone","sexually attracted to the same gender","sexually attracted to the opposite gender","sexually attracted to both genders"]
romantic_descriptions = [x.replace("sexually","romantically") for x in sexual_descriptions]
attitude_attributes = ["antisexual","non-antisexual"]
attitude_descriptions = ["against sex","not against sex"]

for i in range(4):
--- --- for j in range(4):
--- --- --- for k in range(2):
--- --- --- --- print(8*i+2*j+k+1,end="")
--- --- --- --- print(". " + attitude_attributes[k] + " " + romantic_orientations[i]+" "+sexual_orientations[j],end="")
--- --- --- --- print(" - someone who is " + attitude_descriptions[k] + ", is " + romantic_descriptions[i],end="")
--- --- --- --- if(i==j):
--- --- --- --- --- print(" and is also ",end="")
--- --- --- --- else:
--- --- --- --- --- print(" but who is ",end="")
--- --- --- --- print(sexual_descriptions[j]+".")

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 07 Jul 2015, 10:54

I think you proved my point Michael when trying to explain through visibility what is an orientation is and what asexuality is most would struggle not only with your every one gets a medal list but also would be afraid to look at it often as it increases on a daily basis

I appreciate we have different views but honestly...that list kind of sillyness..only adds to the doubt people have about us...Orientation is who you orientate towards and as such asexuality is not an orientation

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 07 Jul 2015, 11:05

We orient towards nobody. That is one of the 4 possibilities, regarding sexual attraction towards 2 genders. There are always 4 possibilities when you have an unconstrained pick at 2 things (or genders): one or the other, or both, or neither.

I do honestly understand there are people who say asexuality is not a sexual orientation. Some call it a lack of orientation. I personally don't agree with this for all the reasons given previously. I think a lack of orientation makes it sound more like we're undecided or that we are just not bothered either way. But some people see it differently.

We are currently reviewing what is on the AVEN front page. We'll definitely make a page for people who favour different views such as asexuality is a lack of orientation. This will go well with the page about how some people think asexuality is not "lack of sexual attraction" but is more like "lack of sexual attraction and/or desire for partnered sexual activity". Both are valid points of view even though they are not the "orthodox" view that AVEN promotes, and both deserve some coverage.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 07 Jul 2015, 11:35

Asexuals do orientate towards people we lack asexual attraction not an orientation as seen by so many straight, gay and bi asexuals..however that orientation has nothing to do with asexuality.

That last bit...Nancy please can we have a facepalm smiley

You did a poll in the largest asexual site, Aven, it's been running for over a year.... http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1047 ... on/page-43

We'll definitely make a page for people who favour different views such as asexuality is a lack of orientation...no one voted on this as it wasn't included

This will go well with the page about how some people think asexuality is not "lack of sexual attraction" but is more like "lack of sexual attraction and/or desire for partnered sexual activity".... you mean the group that couldn't even raise 25% of the vote?

Funny you do not mention the largest group that voted that was nearly 50% who said..please leave well alone, we are happy with the definition

I see your pattern Michael..ignoring majorities even when in our own community when they have expressed a preference... in favour of a group that doesn't even reach a quarter of the populous vote...

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 07 Jul 2015, 11:47

Oh Piffy you know full well that I favour the "lack of sexual attraction" definition. See, we do actually have common ground on some things, believe it or not. That is the main definition AVEN uses and it will remain so. But we should also give the views of others. 25% is a rather sizeable chunk of the community.

How many people on AVEN support asexuality is not an orientation? If it turns out to be less than 25% does that mean we should drop this idea completely?

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 08 Jul 2015, 01:10

KAGU143 wrote:I just want to remind everybody that PiF, while he is a much-valued member of our board, is not any sort of absolute authority on asexuality.His opinions are his own. .


Absolutely Nancy,they are my own and people should remember that. I believe in what's important to me as others will believe in theirs, but I doubt you will find many prepared to take on the bubblelists by asking awkward and heartfelt questions

flergalwit wrote:How many people on AVEN support asexuality is not an orientation?


Difficult to know until one is done? It would be difficult to establish however with the majority of Aven being non long term asexuals

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 09 Jul 2015, 02:33

Be honest Michael..... when your in there and you hear semi, Demi, grey etc don't you think "f#uck me, I'm in a Starbucks" rather than in a place that claims an orientation ?

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 09 Jul 2015, 09:00

Oh no - you know me. I like labels and I have no problem with the supposedly excessive amount of labels on AVEN.

But now you mention semi, demi, gray... it reminded me of a thread on AVEN called "Gray-A, Demisexual, Semisexual, Welcome!" On the long overdue creation of this gray forum, someone wrote (post #3)

"I'd like to thank my agent, my casting director, the best grip and most of all...me :lol:

Thank you backroom for seeing that this was a missing part of aven that was so desperatly needed and for all your assistance to make it so :cake:

thank you to those who gave birdy the ideas...support..and good wishes in thier quest to see it was needed and drove it through :cake:

lastly birdy..you saw a gap many of us overlooked and perhaps longer than we should have done..you took it, ran with it and drove it forward to now be a successfull arena of the grey spectrum within asexuality..well done :cake: :cake:"
(my emphasis)

Ouch. The "grey spectrum within asexuality". I wonder who could have written that. Whoever it was clearly didn't see sexuality in black and white terms at all, and saw the need for AVEN covering these overlooked identities. Either that or they were short of coffee so decided to turn AVEN into a Starbucks.

Any guesses?

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 09 Jul 2015, 09:26

Michael your more boring than I am and you have used this more than a hooker uses vagisil..but as usual you run dry without it... :P :D

You have pointed this out many times before but your selective context fails when you do not mention what led to it and what has happened to it since and that I have replied to it many times over

I could repeat the entirity but a surmation will do just as well

I could see that by riding the lgbt's coat tails for publicity, aven was becoming less and less for asexuals so when birdwing suggested we go for a grey forum I thought to myself " finally, a opportunity for sexuals to identify as sexuals but also as valuable asexual allies" I had hoped it would funnel the great unsure into a forum where they could see they were not asexual but still could learn and discover what they are...valuable asexual allies....birdwing put a lot of work into it so I supported and thanked her and my hope was that it would clarify asexuality with integrity and clear up many of the wrongfull identifications and myths surrounding asexuality

my hope also was.... that it stopped the bleeding out into asexual areas and confusing our very own identity and visibility. As to grey and spectrum......I do not agree with the spectrum at all but like you feel grey sexual and NOT grey Asexual is a more correct term

as the forum started to expand it became clear that instead of providing clarity and identifying what an asexual was and WASN'T..it was instead, promoting asexuality incorrectly...it in turn started to be the largest group in aven...and as I feared/predicted...the largest group in the largest asexual forum...is sexual

Nothing in that opinion Michael is new..my unhappyness that the grey arena has turned into something it was never meant to be is well documented..recognising that group as valuable asexual allies but not as asexual... again is something I have been also consistent in

demi semi hemi grey are valuable asexual allies but do not align with the definition that you agree with me in regards to asexuality...is correct.

However...none of that^^^ has anything to do with the thread of asexuality is not an orientation... you cheeky rascal and you know it you snake oil seller :P

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 10 Jul 2015, 00:00

PiF wrote:you have used this more than a hooker uses vagisil..but as usual you run dry without it... :P :D

Irony is thy middle name, Piffy!

PiF wrote:when birdwing suggested we go for a grey forum I thought to myself " finally, a opportunity for sexuals to identify as sexuals but also as valuable asexual allies" I had hoped it would funnel the great unsure into a forum where they could see they were not asexual but still could learn and discover what they are...valuable asexual allies....

So in other words in order to stop AVEN becoming a coffee shop you decided to open a huge Starbucks in its centre, in the hope it would draw the coffee drinkers away from the rest. Hmm...

PiF wrote:As to grey and spectrum......I do not agree with the spectrum at all but like you feel grey sexual and NOT grey Asexual is a more correct term

Ah no, you got me confused with someone else there, Piffy! I've always favoured gray-A or gray-asexual over gray sexual. But that other person I mentioned earlier suggested what might be an even better idea: "the grey spectrum within asexuality". Hmm - maybe we should use that from now on! :lol:

PiF wrote:However...none of that^^^ has anything to do with the thread of asexuality is not an orientation... you cheeky rascal and you know it you snake oil seller :P

Oh well excuuuuse me! I wasn't the one who wrote:
"Be honest Michael..... when your in there and you hear semi, Demi, grey etc don't you think "f#uck me, I'm in a Starbucks" rather than in a place that claims an orientation ?"

Whoever wrote that decided to divert the conversation to greys etc YET AGAIN. Not to mention that the same person was quite happy with hearing semi, demi, grey a few years ago and even helped to create this forum/thread on AVEN.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 10 Jul 2015, 00:28

You do make me chuckle :lol:

User avatar
CatBunny
Established Member
Posts: 93
Joined: 09 Jul 2015, 12:50

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby CatBunny » 10 Jul 2015, 10:58

if we think of sexualities as numbers, asexuality would be 0. 0 contains nothing but it is still considered a number. So it is an empty sexuality, but it exists and that's why it's a thing.
Image

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 11 Jul 2015, 23:47

Agreed Cat. It's also the point I was trying to make with:

flergalwit wrote:sexual orientation is the set of genders whom you are sexually attracted to. The empty set is a set. 2 genders, 2 possibilities (sexually attracted, not sexually attracted) makes 2^2 = 4 sexual orientations.

Power set({M,F}) = {empty, {M}, {F}, {M,F}}.

But using an analogy with numbers might make it easier to understand.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 12 Jul 2015, 00:56

CatBunny wrote:if we think of sexualities as numbers, asexuality would be 0. 0 contains nothing but it is still considered a number. So it is an empty sexuality, but it exists and that's why it's a thing.


I can imagine the tumblr social justice warriors now, they will be bouncing around like a bouncy ball in a glass jar..."look, look they are saying i am nothing...they are erasing meeeee" .... :lol: :lol: dem crazy kids

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 12 Jul 2015, 01:35

I often thought you'd make a very good tumblr SJW, piffy! :lol:

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 12 Jul 2015, 07:05

I think you just frightened a lot of people with the thought of me actually going into tumblr, reddit, twatter and feckbook....worry not my little snowflakes, those arenas are strictly PiF free and will remain so

User avatar
KAGU143
Administrator
Posts: 1242
Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 10:09

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby KAGU143 » 12 Jul 2015, 07:31

I am on Facebook, and I have been for quite a few years, but one social media playground is plenty for me.
Most of the time it's a bunch of nonsense but it has also been very useful to me. This year, through a Facebook group, I was able to contact local chicken fanciers and, for the first time ever, SELL all of my surplus silkie chicks instead of having to give them away or cull them.
I think it's the first time I've ever made any money with my chickens.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 12 Jul 2015, 08:06

I am not on Facebook or any social media... but my 90 year old nan is on Facebook and sometimes sends me links to the latest round of pictures.

User avatar
CatBunny
Established Member
Posts: 93
Joined: 09 Jul 2015, 12:50

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby CatBunny » 12 Jul 2015, 15:27

frankly if they were aware of the kinsey scale, 0 would be generous. Asexuals are an imaginary number on there...
Image

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 13 Jul 2015, 00:13

I've never understood the blind faith some have in people like Kinsey and Boegert..they are at best good observationalists rather than corner stones of asexuality.

I see quite often ,... According to various studies, about 1% of the world’ population could be asexual in truth it was one very small study where the 1% was his "best guesstimate"

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 13 Jul 2015, 22:43

I don't see much faith in the Kinsey scale: the triangle model and the Storms model are more popular in the asexual community. Bogaert's 1% figure OTOH is bandied around far more than it should be without any qualifications, which is ironic as Bogaert himself was quite clear on the limitations of his study, if you read his 2004 paper. 1% is just an easy figure to remember and for the press to report I guess, and it did lead to that 2004 New Scientist article, which really helped the asexual community to launch.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 08 Sep 2015, 21:30

Someone else calls themselves the one percenters..I doubt they have 58 shades of something just to get members https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaws_Motorcycle_Club

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 14 Nov 2015, 07:58

I'll ask you simple question Michael

I am straight and I am a real asexual...how many orientations do I have?

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 14 Nov 2015, 08:45

You have a romantic orientation (straight or sometimes known as heteroromantic) and a sexual orientation (asexual).

Ignoring non-binary, grays and other more advanced things just for the moment, and generally oversimplifying...

Possible romantic orientations:

Aromantic
Heteroromantic (also known as straight)
Homoromantic (also known as gay)
Biromantic (also know as bi)

Possible sexual orientations:

Asexual
Heterosexual (also known as straight)
Homosexual (also known as gay)
Bisexual (also known as bi)

Note:
People generally have both a sexual orientation and a romantic orientation. In general any combination is possible (all 4x4 = 16 possibilities). For example, you can be heteroromantic and homosexual. Or homoromantic and bisexual. The two orientations do not just happen when asexual/aromantic is involved. In general people have a sexual orientation and a romantic orientation, though for most people they seem to coincide.

Also note that the terms "gay", "straight" and "bi" are ambiguous as they could refer to romantic orientation and/or sexual orientation. The more specific terms heteroromantic, heterosexual etc get rid of this ambiguity.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 14 Nov 2015, 09:29

So my next question would be

Why do you think people view asexuals as people who think too much and are obsessed by labels? :lol: :lol:

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby flergalwit » 14 Nov 2015, 09:36

Only to annoy you, piffy, only to annoy you. Is it working? :lol:

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: Asexuality is not an orientation

Postby PiF » 14 Nov 2015, 09:43

I threw the bait..you came running :lol: :P

glad to see your still around chap


Return to “Asexuality”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest