How do we get the wrinklys in?

For discussion of general issues pertaining to asexuality.
PiF
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How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:07 am

I do not like panfictosarus and that is known.... but her recent strop off is one I have done myself

There is a reason why aven has a hotbox and it is members only..the same reason pan had her situation. Aven on occasion has a strong leaning to pedo's..not in that we do not experience sexual attraction to others because we prefer kids BUT , but more some have sympathy for them..those that get off on kiddy sex and thinking about it..so the forum became hidden mostly to protect avens and asexualities reputation.

So what has this got to do with wrinklies?...simply put pan was similar to me and a very few others in that we ARE parents and some of the idealistic tosh about pedos could have only come from those who do not have kids or much real world experience

Ignoring the kiddy abusers issue....what it highligghted was the lack of adults in the largest asexual resource and the desperate need for us to show asexuality in the modern age is more than just simply females between 16-24

How do we therefore, get more internet using older asexuals and their allies involved to show asexuality is spread cross the ages? I know on occasion went i went into aven and a parent discussion came up (usual slagging the parents off) I was quite happy to offer a very rare asexual opinion..as a parent...however in most cases you would have thought I was a vampire by the amount of emotive crucifixes pulled out and sudden silences ...Aven in particular..or rather it's community highlights why oldies may feel not at ease...so how can we bring experience along with enthusiasm in a way to promote asexuality is across the ages?

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Tanwen
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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby Tanwen » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:16 am

Linky link PiF??? Please :D
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

PiF
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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:28 am

hold on..will we get avens team coming in kicking the doors down and threatening to "shut us down" ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll go and find it

here it is http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1222 ... stigation/

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Tanwen
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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby Tanwen » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:08 am

I remember reading that.
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:20 am

I think it highlights that the idealism of teens maybe pushing away or making it a non parent/adult friendly forum...so for us here and in real life, how can we go after the market that isn't idealistic, very little life skills, lgbt related, teens and bring a wider range of folk and ages in

I know I will stay keep away from the lgbt pride marches unless your lgbt or a supporter and try other routes and michael will say that route as well?

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby Ciri » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:28 am

I GUESS IM NOT WELCOME THEN

BYE BYE OLD FARTS

~24yr old storms off in a strop and slams the door~

:p
You're all dead and I'm your eternal punishment.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:31 am

:lol: :lol: Ciri having a hissy fit...you been on tumblr too long snowflake :lol:

I said how do we bring the wrinklies in...not kick out anyone younger

trust me at 24..your seen as old by schoolkids...put your slippers on and start watching corrie

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby Ciri » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:35 am

I do that anyway :(
You're all dead and I'm your eternal punishment.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:38 am

see..one oldie here already, we move quick

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby Ciri » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:58 am

Just looked in the mirror and OMG a wrinkle?!?!?!
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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby KAGU143 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:16 am

As far as I know, I have only known one paedophile personally - meaning that I knew him and freely associated with him over a period of years. He was genuinely a nice person, very outgoing, always willing to help others, and a damned fine tenor (not that any of that matters.) I knew him for over a year before I found out about his "problem."
Despite his attraction to them, Ron seemed to be almost afraid of children in person. I don't think he would have so much as touched a child, not under any circumstance, but he was also devoutly religious and loathed himself for feeling as he did. His constant prayers, begging to have his "sinful nature" healed had, of course, gone unanswered by God's automated answering service. (I knew Ron for about 6 years, during my religious period.)
His vice was watching child pornography. I'm sure that the parents in the church who hated and avoided him felt justified in doing so, despite all of the scriptures about not judging others that they would recite at the drop of a hat.
They felt sure that he could have stopped being a paedophile if he had really wanted to, just like homosexuals could stop being gay, and asexuals could stop being frigid.

Thankfully, the scales have fallen from my eyes and I'm a recovering Christian now, but I still have some very mixed feelings about paedophiles. I just don't know what to think, but my inclination is to evaluate each one individually and not to think that they are all the same.
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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby Ciri » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:37 pm

If we're talking paedophilia, I have a different outlook to bring to the table that hasn't been discussed here or on AVEN.

[snip because 99% of my personal anecdotes are deleted within 3 hours. Personal Policy that can only be explained by the following personal anecdote: [snip]]

Out of the Paedophiles who were abused as children, how many of them could be suffering from something could be suffering from Clinical Obsessions rather than Attraction? There is a different. How many weren't strong enough to ride their thoughts out and acted on them because that was what they thought would take the thoughts away? Action can be entirely separate to feeling and attraction as we've seem with homosexuals who sleep with people of the opposite gender and asexuals who actually sleep with people. Those are the offenders in jail that I believe can be treated. True paedophiles, I feel are those who experience it as a true attraction. You can't stop people from having other fetishes without damaging them.

I am more inclided to trust somebody who openly admits to being a paedophile, because they are more predictable. They are telling you to control any potential damage. It's the ones you have suspicions about but hide it that you need to worry about.
Last edited by Ciri on Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:56 pm

As a parent my job is to protect my Kids and as a grandparent protect my grandkids. I will make no bones about it..my job is to reduce and remove threats of harm to both. I will leave it as that.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby Ciri » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:07 pm

Oh I agree. Anyone hurts my future kids or cousins, they will find a knife buried in the chest very quickly.
You're all dead and I'm your eternal punishment.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby flergalwit » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:18 pm

Hey, given all the whinging about the younger generation that occurs here on apos, it would be only fair if there's some whinging about the older generation on AVEN. :p

Well all indications are that the older generation complaining about the younger generation and the younger generation complaining about the older generation are nothing new - it's just how people act. "Kids of today, eh?" "When I were a lad/lass..." My parents were doing that speech when I was little, but mostly as a joke. I'm sure everyone who is now part of the older generation got the same speech (for real or for jokes) when they were young, and most likely they were complaining about their elders back then too.

Monty Python even parodied this a good number of decades ago (and I think this sketch actually predates them though I can't remember the details).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

I'm not sure how I fit into this as I'm not really part of the younger generation any more much as I'd like to think I am, and in fact I'm sure I have a few wrinkles here and there... yikes.

And yes: very much agreed with Ciri that allowing minor attracted people to identify as such is better for everyone's safety. Putting a ban on people using that label will not stop anyone joining AVEN; it would just mean they don't use that label. Abusers online are a very real problem, but anyone who uses a label like minor attracted or paedophile on a forum knows they will be carefully monitored while they're on there.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:07 am

Michael I know you and your ilk are trying to tidy up a dangerous person by redefining a new label of "minor attracted people" but in the real world your just trying to put lipstick on a tiger.

So I feel the two are related

I wonder..certainly based on the last census..is it wise for asexuality given it is mostly a teen phase... for those very same forums to be tolerant of any kind of those who are ....sexually attracted to children?

I ask this because..I have some nagging thoughts and questions..

do you think it's possible that some young people who are identifying as asexual DO NOT point there parents in the direction of a possible explanationsuch as a forum, knowing that if they went into those forums their parents would see....people openly declaring themselves being sexually attracted to minors ..in a room full of minors?

I also wonder if some, of the very same the threads intended discussion , oldies..who are more likely to be parents...look in and think...I'm not going in there, they allow pedos?

If you as a site or site owner..do not hold a ban or see the danger of allowing those sexually attracted to children into a forum full of children ...then you have offered a developement ground for such a type of person and by default ....are promoting it..

I often hear site owners and forum teams claim they want a safe place for their members...on that basis would you think allowing those who are sexually attracted to children, into a forum full of children..is a safe thing to do? would you as a parent knowing there are those sexually attracted possibly to your child..would you allow them to continue to use that site?

BUT again coming back to the original reason for the thread.....I wonder if that kind of fluffy false ideology is or could be what is putting off some olders?

I think in forums particulary around the discovery phase and young children..we need to have more of an eye on reality than ideology and that is where having more oldies in would help

as a movement however away from the forums..I do not think the exscuse..kids use the internet more...holds so much anymore as most adults I know are smartphone addicted and computer active...So how can we tap into that resource in the real world to bring that age wide reflection of asexuality?
Last edited by PiF on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby flergalwit » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:37 am

I have no idea whether or not having a blanket ban on minor attracted people is putting off a significant number of older people from participating on AVEN. It seems like pure speculation to me. AVEN has always been mostly younger demographic - since like forever - and long before a few people identified as minor attracted on the site.

And again, there is absolutely no way of stopping minor attracted people entering AVEN. None at all. We could make a policy that no-one is allowed to call themselves minor attracted. Would that stop minor attracted people entering the site? No. They just wouldn't identify. Would it stop dangerous minor attracted people (or dangerous non minor attracted people for that matter) using the site? Definitely not. If someone is dangerous they would be even less likely to use a label like that in public.

We all need to be vigilant against online abuse whether it comes from people who identify as minor attracted or anyone else. There is no short cut.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:53 am

flergalwit wrote: We could make a policy that no-one is allowed to call themselves minor attracted. Would that stop minor attracted people entering the site? No. They just wouldn't identify. Would it stop dangerous minor attracted people (or dangerous non minor attracted people for that matter) using the site? Definitely not. If someone is dangerous they would be even less likely to use a label like that in public.

We all need to be vigilant against online abuse whether it comes from people who identify as minor attracted or anyone else. There is no short cut.


I agree in some point Michael however like the suicide policy that i insisted was put in place..it was more about protecting the site. In regards to pedos and their subsets, sending a clear signal that the site, the forum and the site owner do not want those sexually attracted to children in thier forum is probably a must

This would send a clear message to those thinking about it and to those who might want to use such forums who until such a comment..would be seen as promoting it by allowing it.

as to "if we know who they are we can monitor them".... http://www.rt.com/uk/239245-paedophiles ... uk-police/

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:00 pm

Be honest..whern it comes to branding..which brand would you buy and which one would be more likely to fail?

The brand that says welcome pedo subsets amongst our children..or the one that says..not here thank you ?

People already think we are "asexual" because something caused it...add, we welcome those who are sexually attracted to children and suddenly 2 and 2 make 5 and the visible pr damage is done.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby flergalwit » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:39 pm

You've switched from discussing member safety to branding / PR. I will agree that PR is always a concern when it comes to controversial topics such as minor attraction, and FWIW I've previously advocated banning the subject entirely on AVEN since most of the threads on it are a destructive waste of time, and the potential for fallout is large.

I'd only be in favour of that if it was a complete ban on the topic though. I feel you must either discuss something fairly or not at all. Short of a complete ban, I feel the topic is handled in a suitable way.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:51 am

The fact you do not see the link between safety and branding would come as no surprise to me Michael

I would..given the forum is largely children and teens suggest a complete ban. There are plenty (unfortuneatly) of forums to cater for those people and a forum which claims to offer a safe place is not one of them.

Whilst you may try and tidy things up with such titles as "minor attraction"..lets call a spade a spade shall we...people who physically or mentally want to have sex with children and are sexually attracted to children. No forum no matter how much they try and tidy a name up such as that.... can ever claim to be a safe place for teens and kids whilst allowing those who place risk to it's core group.

Kiddyfiddlers of any kind, should never be made welcome in a forum that is mostly kids and teens..and nothing will ever change my mind on that

ask yourself a simple question..if you had a child and they wanted to go onto the internet to ask questions about their discovery path and sexuality......which one would you feel comfortable with...

one that allows people who actively promote and enables their sexual attraction to children

or one that bans the subject and those types entirely?

Perhaps now the link between branding and safety becomes more apparent.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby flergalwit » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:13 am

I have already addressed the safety aspect: making a policy banning openly minor attracted people does not stop minor attracted people entering the site.

Yes I agree, there are probably many forums for minor attracted people. For the most part, I do not want anyone to end up there. You even say "unfortunately" yourself for the existence of these places, which suggests to me even you can see it would not be a good thing if minor attracted people go to these places. Some of them might even be pro child sex sites and I definitely don't want anyone to go there. Doesn't that make sense?

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:03 am

I have already addressed the safety aspect: making a policy banning openly minor attracted people does not stop minor attracted people entering the site.[/quote]

This is true but you have rules in the sites very own tos that forbids trolls, flaming, saying bad words and threats of suicide but that doesn't stop them happening so again I ask,...in a forum mostly used by children..why is there no rule forbidding those sexually attarcted to children?...you could say the one omittance says more about the site than the kiddy fiddler themselves could it not?

flergalwit wrote: You even say "unfortunately" yourself for the existence of these places, which suggests to me even you can see it would not be a good thing if minor attracted people go to these places. Some of them might even be pro child sex sites and I definitely don't want anyone to go there. Doesn't that make sense?


I say unfortuneatly because they even exist at all.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby flergalwit » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:09 am

So isn't it a bad thing if that's where they end up? If, for example, they end up on a site that is in favour of child sex, wouldn't that make any potential offender more likely to offend?

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:25 am

Michael, what they do is upto them

We are however involved with ASEXUAL visibility and within the forums we use that are mostly children..we have a duty of care to those and those first.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:25 am

What's your view on this Michael, will it help us or should it worry us?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ances.html

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby flergalwit » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:33 am

I don't like their use of the term asexual in the title, no. But note that it's only the title. The rest of the article, and the quotes from King, use the term "non sexual", which we don't really use too much. So that gives us some distance at least.

I think many thought of Jimmy Savile himself as a kind of asexual (before his abuse was widely published) because he appeared to have no interest in long term relationships. Of course this was a misconception, but luckily since his abuse has become known, I haven't seen him associated with asexuality. If Heath is guilty of these allegations, hopefully he likewise won't be associated with us.

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Re: How do we get the wrinklys in?

Postby PiF » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:55 am

So now you see why an addition within a forum tos is so important..if anyone comes looking we can clearly show asexual does not mean pedophile