Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

For discussion of general issues pertaining to asexuality.
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Pamcakes
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Pamcakes » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:08 pm

Yeah, I am a repulsed heterosexual! Can I say that? The idea of lady parts really turns me off. Breasts are lovely, and so is everything else that comes with a female body, but female genitals are something I have no interest in investigating further. Every time I've considered it, I've felt actively repelled.

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Pugnacioun
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Pugnacioun » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:52 am

I would never have sex with any partner, so the genitalia of a potential one would be the furthest thing from my mind.
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby flergalwit » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:08 am

I'm kind of split on this one. On the one hand, I agree with Siggy and others that trans people should be identified by their target gender. Thus a FtM is male and might be known as a transman or simply as a man, and a MtF is female and might be known as a transwoman or simply as a woman.

However, on the other hand, I see nothing wrong with disjointed's criteria for potential partners. I'm the same except I'd go further: I'd only consider dating people who are both female-identified and biologically female. Why? Er well, why do people have a gender preference even? It's not a question of virtue: if I'm only interested in women, that's not saying that women are superior to men. Nor vice versa. Hence, if I'm only interested in cis-women, that doesn't seem to me to be saying that transwomen are in some way inferior. Nor does it seem to me to be questioning their womanhood.

If gender preferences are considered legitimate, then why not bio-sex preferences too?

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby fridayoak » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:49 pm

So if you met someone you assumed was biofem and fell for them romantically (e.g say you worked together or something and developed romantic feelings for) then you'd be able to turn off those feelings after they told you they used to be a man? What would change exactly? If the attraction is already there why would you try to stop it, or do you think it would just suddenly feel unnatural so the attraction would just cease?

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby flergalwit » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:31 pm

Of course it would not be as simple as turning my feelings off.

I imagine I'd react in approximately the same way a heteromantic man would if he fell in love with someone who he thought was a woman who actually turned out to be a man. (Say, he was fooled by his appearance.) His feelings most likely wouldn't just switch off, but if they were in a relationship then, well, continuing it may be possible but it could well be pretty hard.

(Though as a side issue, if by 'used to be a man' you are talking about someone who has undergone SRS, then if my understanding is correct such people are considered both gender-female *and* bio-female, post-transition - hence cisgendered. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about this.)

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby fridayoak » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:39 am

flergalwit wrote:hip then, well, continuing it may be possible but it could well be pretty hard.

(Though as a side issue, if by 'used to be a man' you are talking about someone who has undergone SRS, then if my understanding is correct such people are considered both gender-female *and* bio-female, post-transition - hence cisgendered. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about this.)


Oh I just meant a mtf, I figured "biofemale" and "cis-gendered" were the same thing (i.e born a woman). I didn't think you could become them after transition (just shows how difficult it can be having a conversation about this without people getting offended by people getting the terminology wrong). I mean you can't become a completely biologically female even after an operation cos you still wouldn't have the body of a biologically born female e.g a working uterus etc.

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby flergalwit » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:02 am

fridayoak wrote:Oh I just meant a mtf, I figured "biofemale" and "cis-gendered" were the same thing (i.e born a woman). I didn't think you could become them after transition (just shows how difficult it can be having a conversation about this without people getting offended by people getting the terminology wrong). I mean you can't become a completely biologically female even after an operation cos you still wouldn't have the body of a biologically born female e.g a working uterus etc.

Well you could be right about the word usage. If I'm right then birth-sex, bio-sex and gender-identification are potentially three different things. But I don't know for certain. I'm not sure the term usage is entirely consistent anyway.

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KAGU143
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby KAGU143 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:09 am

The whole gender thing is very complex.
There is a well-known AVENite who has a rare medical abnormality. (I can't remember the name of it.) She never went through puberty in the normal manner so they finally took her to a specialist for testing to figure out why. Eventually they figured out that her chromosomes are XY, so, genetically speaking, she is male. The thing is, she is physically and gender-identified as female, always has been, and doesn't want to be a male. It was a real eye-opener for me when she explained her situation.
I think I had a very sheltered upbringing. 8|
Anyway, my opinions about gender issues have changed quite a bit since I joined AVEN. The world is more complicated than I ever imagined.
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby flergalwit » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:21 am

I've heard of that before - it's a known phenomenon. It's like the Y chromosome and genes can act "recessively" occassionallly. (Er, kinda sorta.)

(All the examples I know of, iirc, are XYs that are physically female - never vice versa. But who knows.)

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Pugnacioun » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:27 pm

Which is to say that words are tricky, and even those who belong to the trans community stumble, especially because very few words outside of "transsexual" have any definite medical definition.
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Siggy
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Siggy » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:12 pm

I asked my friend what she thought about people identifying as cis after transitioning. Her response was "That's so much bullshit." Even if you've fully transitioned, you've still had the trans experience of having been assigned the gender that you're not. And then she started talking about how some trans people are transphobic and homophobic. For instance, there's a group who believes they just have "Harry Benjamin Syndrome", and that people like her are just confused, because she likes women and doesn't fit absolutely every stereotype about women.

So, uh, yeah. There's a second opinion for you.

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P is for...
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby P is for... » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:21 pm

ooh, a gender thread! hooray!

well. just for reference, i'm trans myself; and personally i couldn't care less whether any given person is attracted to me or put off on account of that fact. there just aren't any "shoulds" about attraction. it is what it is, and we have very little, if any, control over it. it isn't any more helpful to say that a hetero-romantic/-sexual female ought to be attracted to a pre-op transman despite his biology than it is to say a bisexual ought to pick one sex to be attracted to and stick with it just so everybody else can feel comfortable.

on the matter of the difficulty of terminology, though--i can personally attest. in my own situation, i've known for a very long time that i have gender issues, and simply chose to repress them for decades, for personal reasons. when i got to the point where i just couldn't do that anymore, i had the most sincere intentions imaginable--i mean, this was my life i was talking about here--but it felt like i couldn't say anything right, because i didn't know the right words to use, and the fact that people were overly ardent in their need to correct my terminology while not acknowledging my intent did set me back a bit in my progress. just as an example--by training, i'm a Medievalist and a nominal Classicist, which means the model of the hermaphrodite is a familiar (and, if i may say, a beautiful) one to me. i learned very quickly, however, that the word is more often than not considered a slur in the trans community. and believe me, i understand; when one's been called something as an insult for years, it's tremendously difficult to see the word in a positive light. but that's just it--to me, it didn't have that negative connotation. far from it, i found it to be a lovely and evocative word that had a personal resonance for me. the fact that it didn't to others frankly never occurred to me, just as it didn't occur them that it might have a positive connotation for me. and just this week, i heard someone--a cisperson--use the word "trannies" in a cheerful, familiar way; i had to stop myself from saying that i find that word a little offensive and derogatory, because evidently to them it was simply a term of affection.

all to say that--yeah, i get how difficult it is for a cisperson--or even a questioning transperson--to get a transgender education. i try very hard not to have a chip on my shoulder about it, because i recognize how overwhelming the learning curve can be.

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KAGU143
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby KAGU143 » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:36 pm

Oh man ... the term "tranny" would confuse the heck out of me!
Ya know, cuz I have hung out with quite a few auto mechanics at one time or another, and "tranny" can also be translated as that T word whose very mention will start the bidding at around $1000.00, more or less.
And I have to tell myself that "trans-men" are NOT the people who make a living fixing those things, although there is no reason why they couldn't be.
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Dargon » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:22 pm

KAGU143 wrote:Oh man ... the term "tranny" would confuse the heck out of me!
Ya know, cuz I have hung out with quite a few auto mechanics at one time or another, and "tranny" can also be translated as that T word whose very mention will start the bidding at around $1000.00, more or less.
And I have to tell myself that "trans-men" are NOT the people who make a living fixing those things, although there is no reason why they couldn't be.


You and me both. That's where my mind goes any time I hear the term.

Speaking of which, I need to get my tranny fluid changed.

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby fridayoak » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:03 pm

"Tranny" is a pretty light-hearted phrase here in the UK at least. Like you hear it on tv on lot, and it's used self-deprecatingly (maybe as a way of changing it's meaning, I'm not sure if it was originally used as an insult). Come to think of it you don't hear much about discrimination towards transexuals, I dunno if that's cos it doesn't happen or if it's just not reported much.

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby flergalwit » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:50 pm

fridayoak wrote:"Tranny" is a pretty light-hearted phrase here in the UK at least. Like you hear it on tv on lot, and it's used self-deprecatingly (maybe as a way of changing it's meaning, I'm not sure if it was originally used as an insult). Come to think of it you don't hear much about discrimination towards transexuals, I dunno if that's cos it doesn't happen or if it's just not reported much.

Very much the latter, as I understand things.

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Typical P. Pinecone » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:12 pm

In the trans community, the Baby Boomers generation is rather stereotyped to be the group that all transitioned in their 40's, and usually don't pass in the slightest. (If I remember right, Disjointed, you're an older guy. Maybe not that old, but still older) Trans people really have the worst PR ever, because if a trans person can live a normal life "blending" in with society, they are not going to want to advocate the fact that they are trans. Usually people who are passed transition leave this community to those who are still struggling to pass.
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby vincentjhyde » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:15 am

The answer to your question is very much a yes. I myself am Genderqueer, as is my Mate. We may seem back to front to everyone in society, but the fact remains we know what we are and who we are and everyone else can go hang. I know it's difficult for people to understand, but really a little understanding goes a long way on their parts.

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby SlightlyMetaphysical » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:07 am

P- I know what you mean about words and associations. One of my trans friends uses tranny constantly, and I have no idea whether and in which contexts I'm allowed to use it. I've also met someone who happily identifies as a hermaphrodite, because they think the term intersex sounds too much like "I'm into sex". Which means that, in the circle of people who've met her, hermaphrodite has become the correct and positive term, and I'm slightly afraid of what the reaction is going to be when they innocently use the word hermaphrodite in other company.

I also get this with words like homosexual and queer. Homosexual has apparently become a slur in America (fortunately not yet in Britain), and I'm like "But I need that word. I'm not gay. I'm just homosexual!" And queer is apparently more offensive in some parts of Britain than it is in America, and I just want it to stop being an issue so we can have a word and scrap the stupid LGBTQQAAIPPOSTetc. I think the blanket offense over not-neccesarily-offensive words needs to be toned down a lot. For example, if one person's going to take offense over intersex, and another over hermaphrodite, they can't really blame people who don't know which words are allowed.

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ily
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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby ily » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:10 pm

SlightlyMetaphysical wrote:I also get this with words like homosexual and queer. Homosexual has apparently become a slur in America (fortunately not yet in Britain), and I'm like "But I need that word. I'm not gay. I'm just homosexual!" And queer is apparently more offensive in some parts of Britain than it is in America, and I just want it to stop being an issue so we can have a word and scrap the stupid LGBTQQAAIPPOSTetc. I think the blanket offense over not-neccesarily-offensive words needs to be toned down a lot. For example, if one person's going to take offense over intersex, and another over hermaphrodite, they can't really blame people who don't know which words are allowed.


I'm not sure "homosexual" is really a slur here, although it tends to be the term used by extreme homophobes, as opposed to "gay", which homophobes think has too many positive connotations. :deadpan: I think you're right that "queer" is more offensive in Britain than the US. I've never heard it used as an insult here. (At least, that word in particular.)

I've heard "homo" used as a term of endearment, though.

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Jicragg » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:16 pm

Queer isn't an insult here. I think the closest is faggot. You can say it in a good way but it's probably the most "insulting".

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby Dargon » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:13 am

It largely depends on the meaning behind it and the region (America is pretty damned big). Homosexual is seldom used as a slur in these regions (except in the "God [has this opinion regarding] homosexuals" manner), though gay, fag, homo, queer, and pretty much every single other synonym is. Mind you, gay and queer are also largely used as descrptive terms as well. Like I said, depends on the meaning and context.

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Re: Could you love/have a relationship with a mtf/ftm asexual?

Postby fridayoak » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:53 pm

Queer was definitley used an insult a lot at school and stuff when I was growing up in London, well "queer-boy" was more common. In fact any word that meant gay was an insult, come to think about it. I think faggot is common now due to it coming over from America but I never heard it much, if at all when I was at school, but gay, homo, queer/queer-boy, bent/bender were used as insults all the time. But no not the word homosexual itself, I don't think.