Some help I hope on what is an asexual

For discussion of general issues pertaining to asexuality.
runester
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby runester » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:27 pm

Hi, Harmony!
My dictionary defines celibacy as "the state of being married." Also, "chaste" is defined as " abstaining from carnal love."
That is how I was able to reconcile myself with the idea that celibacy is a matter of choice; after all this time! :halo:

runester
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby runester » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:31 pm

Hi, Ciri!
AVEN's definition of "sexual attraction" is in their Front Page/FAQ area. :halo:

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SuperAwesomeSpammer
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby SuperAwesomeSpammer » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:43 pm

Shizzle. Tha iz a wak definishun of attrackshun and nedz 2 b changed yo.

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jmb
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby jmb » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:34 pm

Ciri wrote:Because that is a very poor definition and excludes sex positives from being asexual. Also, I was under the impression that they did not have a definition for sexual attraction.


I agree, though I think AVEN's definitions of most things are poor anyway. Basically, the definitions are either: so open and fluid that practically anyone can define themselves as Asexual and so that confuses what it is, or as in this example, they are limiting. Actually, I think it should be the other way around, in that the definition of Asexual should be very specific/limiting and the definition of Sexual Attraction should be wide open.

I no longer point people to AVEN. I do what I can to describe it as I understand it for myself. Which, any any more I say "asexual" for ease sake, but since I'm aromantic too, saying "I don't have an orientation" is the easiest and people actually seem to understand that better. (even if they don't accept it) **shrugs** YMMV

Harmony wrote:I'm a cake celibate. I may desire and want a piece of cake, but I don't desire to continue a diet of empty sugary calories ... so I don't eat cake. That would be something different than someone who is acake, because they never desired cake in the first place regardless of its nutritional value.


Harmony, this is how I used to describe it (not with cake, but the same idea), until I was told "desire has nothing to do with it." It's the expulsion of "desire" from the definition that confuses me. Since PiF and many on AVEN say that "desire has nothing to do with it."
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby Harmony » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:50 am

Look at it this way: if desire had nothing to do with it or if it was true that asexuals desire sex but can't find anyone that they are motivated to have sex with, then they would be spending all of their time being sexually frustrated. That sure as heck doesn't describe me. Perhaps it describes PiF and others which is probably why a common reaction is "You haven't met the right person".

So should we change the definition to: An Asexual is a person who experiences Sexual Frustration. They can't find anyone they want to screw. This is different than an Involuntary Celibate who can't find anyone who wants to screw them.

A good question would be: Do you want to get into a sexual relationship as your ideal preference (whether it be a one night stand or a 20+ year deal)? If so, then why do you consider yourself different than "sexuals"?

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby jmb » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:11 am

Harmony wrote:A good question would be: Do you want to get into a sexual relationship as your ideal preference (whether it be a one night stand or a 20+ year deal)? If so, then why do you consider yourself different than "sexuals"?


Dang, rather than definitions, that question should be on the front page of all Ace websites. Its specific enough that demi/grey/etc-sexuals would not be included, but would still allow sex-positive asexuals to be included.
"He won't be your assistant" - Greg Lestrade
"But I need an audience" - What Sherlock Holmes meant to say.

runester
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby runester » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:57 pm

This is for anyone, please!

What is the definition of a "sex-positive asexual"? :halo:

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KAGU143
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby KAGU143 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:40 pm

To me, a sex-positive asexual is one who both:

1) Fully supports the rights of other people to freely enjoy their various forms of sexuality without disparaging them in any way.
2) Is willing, if necessary, to engage in sexual activity for the sake of a relationship.
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:18 am

Harmony wrote:Look at it this way: if desire had nothing to do with it or if it was true that asexuals desire sex but can't find anyone that they are motivated to have sex with, then they would be spending all of their time being sexually frustrated. That sure as heck doesn't describe me. Perhaps it describes PiF and others which is probably why a common reaction is "You haven't met the right person".


I know that definition does not describe me. I see it as building a car..when someone built me they left out the sexual attraction option. I do not feel the need or want for sex.

An example...I see a stunning girl riding a bicycle down the road..being a bicycle collector I would think...that bike is nice and the girl is nice too and not the other way around...it's like there is a big nothing and because the sex part is nothing it doesn't even register as a thought

I agree witgh Nancys sex positive description

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby flergalwit » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:00 am

To me a sex-positive asexual is an asexual who has an overall positive general attitude towards sex. I consider myself a sex-positive, repulsed asexual who wouldn't consent to sexual activity in any circumstances.

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby runester » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:32 pm

Hello flergalwit!
And you are a sex-positive, why/how? Just curious! :halo:

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:08 am

Not sure on Michael so won't answer for him but I consider myself as sex positive. Generally most of my relationships have been with sexual partners. That has meant I am okay with sex, have very little restrictions on what and when. I gain no satisfaction from it other than seeing my partner being made happy and so in turn that makes me happy. They know I would not like it as a regular thing so for most a balance has been achieved.

I have had one or two ladies who have said...o my a man who doesn't want sex...where have you been all my life, when what they really meant...I never wanted sex on my partners terms but now with you I can decide when and where

it's a fickle thing but I don't seek to objectify it but put it more in the category of getting drunk and then eating a kebab...sometimes shit happens.

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby Ciri » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:07 am

I'm not sex repulsed in itself (if I am I'm in denial). I just don't like being touched on my skin by hands or fingers. I enjoy sex but have to work myself up to it and give a specific day and time, I don't like the thought of it with anyone which as you can imagine limits the amount of times I have been involved in sex things. I backed out of it with that threesome with my mates because I began thinking about it. However, I do physically enjoy sex.

I couldn't give a crap what the rest of society do sex-wise. I do think sex and romance often ruin otherwise good storylines.
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby runester » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:50 pm

Hi, PiF!
I think that your interpretation of what those women meant is skewed, unless you have first-hand information. I would say that they meant: 'where have you been all my life', as 'whew, now I don't have to participate in sexual activity with this man'. Possible? :halo:

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:16 am

First hand experience of 3 such women..I have yet to meet a woman who is sexual and genuinely meant.... I'm glad I have found a man who does not want sex.

Again though not all asexuals do not want sex..... some enjoy the act of sex...some seem to forget the narritive that we do not experience sexual attraction...it does not mean we are all against sex, do not enjoy sex

It is only in the lack of sexual attraction itself that we can call ourselves asexual..everything else.....is sexual

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby Lady Girl » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:28 pm

RE: Desire having nothing to do with sexual attraction (and therefore the definition of asexuality)...it has nothing to do with asexuality for those who say or believe that to be true for themselves. For asexual people who feel and believe that desire for sexual contact is a part of sexual attraction, it has something to do with it. Their experience and description as such is valid and legitimate and does not diminish the meaning of asexuality.

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:35 am

I feel it does...as it confuses wants with asexuality

let me help

desire.... http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/desire

asexuality... top of the page... http://www.asexuality.org/en/

One is clearly a want and one is not

of course people can believe what they "want" but like aven 85% will be wrong and if we are to try and convince others that we are genuine then to project want would be missleading and incorrect

For some the sense of community is more important than a correct definition...blur the lines and the community becomes a community of people who are not asexual but project themselves as such then fail at the first hurdle of correctness and genuiness

This is something aven particulary has struggled with in that it seeks to be a community of oddments rather than an asexual community pushing forward visibility accuratly

Nothing I say will change things as people will do what they will do...but when the doubters use our own standards against us..we can't really blame them.

That said....I've always appreciated that the view you have LG is important to you

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby jmb » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:26 pm

PiF wrote:I feel it does...as it confuses wants with asexuality

let me help

desire.... http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/desire

asexuality... top of the page... http://www.asexuality.org/en/

One is clearly a want and one is not

of course people can believe what they "want" but like aven 85% will be wrong and if we are to try and convince others that we are genuine then to project want would be missleading and incorrect

For some the sense of community is more important than a correct definition...blur the lines and the community becomes a community of people who are not asexual but project themselves as such then fail at the first hurdle of correctness and genuiness

This is something aven particulary has struggled with in that it seeks to be a community of oddments rather than an asexual community pushing forward visibility accuratly

Nothing I say will change things as people will do what they will do...but when the doubters use our own standards against us..we can't really blame them.

That said....I've always appreciated that the view you have LG is important to you


PiF:

Then give us a definition of "Sexual Attraction" that DOESN'T include desire. (So far you have failed to do so)

Because even the Oxford Dictionary that you quote defines Attraction as: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... attraction

The few sites that I've found that define Sexual Attraction define it along these lines: interest on the basis of sexual desire

You want the world to believe we exist, then you should define the words the way the rest of the world defines them.

To say "Desire has nothing to do with it" is rewriting the definition of Attraction.
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:09 am

jmb wrote:PiF:

Then give us a definition of "Sexual Attraction" that DOESN'T include desire. (So far you have failed to do so).


Not quite, I have given incidences and a definition but because it doesn't make sense to you 100% you deem it not correct..that's your perogative

I believe we should push away from desire as it pushes want..as such it is so closely then linked to celibacy that we lose the genuiness of asexuality

jmb wrote:To say "Desire has nothing to do with it" is rewriting the definition of Attraction.


how would you see that?

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby Lady Girl » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:43 am

I actually think celibacy has far more to do with choice than it does desire or even want. Want and desire seem more like urges to me. Celibacy seems simply a choice made...to not indulge, regardless of want or lack of want. The important difference between celibacy and asexuality is the choice being made in celibacy.

For me personally, if an attraction to a person doesn't include a single thought of (or desire for) sexual contact with them I wouldn't call it sexual attraction. This is why the attraction factor in sexual people and asexual people is nearly the same sans the desire to become sexually involved for the asexual person.

If one has aesthetic attraction for someone, they more than likely have a desire to look at them. If they have romantic attraction for someone, they have a desire to become romantically involved. If they are intellectually attracted, they would desire to interact with them in some kind of intellectual level, and so forth.

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby KAGU143 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:14 am

Wanting, desiring, or being attracted to something is not a conscious choice.
It originates in the subconscious mind as a response to any number of stimuli, including past memories of something perceived as pleasant, inculcated social pressure, addiction, hormonal influence, etc, etc.

Acting on attraction or desire IS a conscious choice, but it can't be quantified by an outsider. Example: pretending to enjoy sex isn't the same thing as wanting it.

I think this might be part of the problem with pinpointing a precise definition of asexuality because sexual attraction is so highly subjective. No person can accurately tell what another person is experiencing, so, by default, all attempts to do so will require mental or emotional projection of that person's own experiences.
That projection is almost always going to be wrong, at least in part, because no two people are ever alike.
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:08 am

The problem with attempting to fuse desire with sexual attraction is that in essence those doing so have basically placed asexuality in the "imaginery and unprovable" bin

I would say wanting is very much a concious choice...i want an iphone 5s, I want a blackberry, I want a one legged lesbian dog

Desire then....That ferrari is very desireable, that rolex is very disireable

none of the two above would be a sexual attraction or the lack of it

and this for me explains why so many doubt asexuality...even within our own quarters we seek to confuse want and desire with the lack of sexual attraction

and to that the demi and semi brigade and I'm sorry to say it backs up what I have said for years...much of the blame why so many doubt us lays firmly at our own feet.

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby Lady Girl » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:20 am

The only thing is...why does one person want a blackberry and the other an iphone 5s? Why does one woman want to have sex with her girlfriend and another woman want to have sex with her male neighbor? Does it have to do with being attracted to one or the other? I would think so. Is it a conscious choice? I don't think so...the heart wants what the heart wants.

The conscious choice comes into play when they decide what they want to do about these desires, whether that be to save money for the blackberry or to hit on the girlfriend.

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:10 am

The trouble with adding desire although a want is asexuality then goes like this

An asexual is someone who does not experience sexual attraction...well unless your semi demi grey but hey they are asexuals too ..of a kind

an asexual is a person who does not experience sexual attraction....although some also feel desire is not a want....so they can be asexual too

so what is an asexual....fucked if I know and I am one

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby jmb » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:02 am

I think you need to get yourself some new dictionaries.

PiF wrote:An asexual is someone who does not experience sexual attraction...well unless your semi demi grey but hey they are asexuals too ..of a kind


We've discussed elsewhere that if you experience ANY sexual attraction, you're not asexual. So it's semi-demi-grey SEXUAL. (Which, makes a hell of a lot more sense even in scientific terms - "a" is lacking and semi-demi-grey is having SOME, even if limited.)

PiF wrote:an asexual is a person who does not experience sexual attraction....although some also feel desire is not a want....so they can be asexual too


Explain how desire is not a want? Especially since "want" is one of the definitions of Desire...
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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby Harmony » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:03 pm

PiF, it sounds like you want and enjoy sex only if the other person initiates and only if they don't do it with any sort of frequency. Do you think AVEN was initially created for folks to gather and talk about how they want and enjoy sex? Would people who want and enjoy sex seek out an asexual forum or a sexual forum?

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Re: Some help I hope on what is an asexual

Postby PiF » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:53 am

I am indifferent to sex, if it's with the right partner then I have no problem with meeting their needs as long as it is a two way stright and they realise I do not want to bump and grind on a regular basis. Do I want sex? I'd rather have a cup of peppermint tea...That said I do find I am rather good at it which I attribute to being asexual and avoiding the roller coaster of emotion and replacing it with a a,b,c, d etc action/thought process

This is where confusion with grey this and spectrum that creeps in....asexuality is not you want sex, enjoy sex, are repulsed by sex...it is simply lacking sexual attraction to others

Aven was created from the fall out from the libido society I believe...this might explain it better viewtopic.php?f=14&t=448

I don't think it was created for the sole purpose os sex...but to assume it will never be talked about is also to assume athieists will never talk about religion