God speaks

A place for discussing real-life community building and media engagements.
PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

God speaks

Postby PiF » 04 Apr 2015, 03:38

I know michael you hold him in such regards that you would lick the dew drops from his poo ring but saw this in the other place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gD7chrY_OY before i go into it, PanFictosaurus☣Rex reaction made me giggle perhaps someone should have a word about who the messiah is

PanFictosaurus☣Rex....Posted Today, 10:18 AM....I'm too scared to watch this after what he said about asexual relationships in the movie (A)sexual. That movie was actually really good aside from the 20 minutes or so that he was spouting garbage about all asexuals being polyamorous and being incapable of monogamy because ''monogamy is only possible with sex'' (barfs). Get on your own website, do a little research, and wake the f*ck up David Jay. Anyway maybe in this video he's wised up a little, I hope he has. *clicks play*

highlighted the relevant part...snigger

Anyway...onwards

what he seems to be talking about and nothing more is more options on your facebook for status reports but in usual david fashion spends over 3 and a half minutes writing on walls and completely forgetting the friends status is never used in real life

Imagine if you went upto someone and said hello allosexual...they would punch you in the chops

what it does highlight is the obsessive need most "asexuals" and i use that term loosely..have an innate need for labels and our leader has just described the system that sexuals use more than we do

User avatar
SpanishDuchess
Super Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 02 Sep 2015, 01:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SpanishDuchess » 05 Sep 2015, 05:02

PiF wrote:Get on your own website, do a little research, and wake the f*ck up David Jay.

I remember I reported this disrespectful comment towards David Jay. Much to my surprise, the Admods didn't remove it.
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks. ~Arthur Miller

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 05 Sep 2015, 11:00

I think we are seeing more than ever of which siggy was a great example... ..it's not what is said......but who says it that depends if action is taken at all

User avatar
SpanishDuchess
Super Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 02 Sep 2015, 01:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SpanishDuchess » 06 Sep 2015, 04:19

PiF wrote:I think we are seeing more than ever of which siggy was a great example... ..it's not what is said......but who says it that depends if action is taken at all

True! I reported PanFicto for saying: "I am generally one of the more bitchy posters on this forum, due to endless frustration with a lot of the ignorance perpetuated here lol." (http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1233 ... ecap-post/) But, once again, they did nothing against her.
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks. ~Arthur Miller

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: God speaks

Postby flergalwit » 06 Sep 2015, 06:00

C'mon if they'd removed "Get on your own website, do a little research, and wake the f*ck up David Jay. " then wouldn't you be saying the admods were overly sensitive to any criticism of their great messiah and leader?

If I've understood correctly, expressing critical comments about DJ and AVEN more generally is what you want to be able to do. So why should the admods remove them?

I'm not going to deny having a lot of respect for DJ. Anyone who's read my posts for a long time will also know I have some very different views on him to some things. He is basically a leftist activist (which I am very definitely not) but a generally reasonable one in my experience. He has also been funding the AVEN server almost singlehandedly for years without making this fact public. Hopefully that'll change soon.

User avatar
SpanishDuchess
Super Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 02 Sep 2015, 01:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SpanishDuchess » 06 Sep 2015, 06:21

flergalwit wrote:He is basically a leftist activist.

I like the fact that he is a left-winger. I admire him for other reasons as well.
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks. ~Arthur Miller

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 06 Sep 2015, 08:00

flergalwit wrote:C'mon if they'd removed "Get on your own website, do a little research, and wake the f*ck up David Jay. " then wouldn't you be saying the admods were overly sensitive to any criticism of their great messiah and leader?


? if they had removed it we would not have seen it...we did see it and we both know people have been given warnings for criticising the messiah on aven before...but again...as is becoming more obvious day by day..it is not what you say but who says it

flergalwit wrote:I'm not going to deny having a lot of respect for DJ. Anyone who's read my posts for a long time will also know I have some very different views on him to some things. He is basically a leftist activist (which I am very definitely not) but a generally reasonable one in my experience. He has also been funding the AVEN server almost singlehandedly for years without making this fact public. Hopefully that'll change soon.


Not entirely true..he treats aven like an ex girlfriend..something he doesn't want any longer himself but doesn't want anyone else having it

it it has been made public over the years because often people have asked how can the contribute...mostly when the servers play up..and it is always brought up that he and one or two others fund it privately..so you are incorrect that this has not been made public and constantly so over the years

as you should be able to see michael as you were in one or two :lol: http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1138 ... 1061082833

Skycaptain
Regular Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 16 Aug 2015, 07:45

Re: God speaks

Postby Skycaptain » 06 Sep 2015, 08:23

Yahoo, people who recognise that all non-cis-hetero's seem to have a tilt to the left. I attended Reading pride yesterday and it might as well have been a militant convention. All was so PC My brain aches

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: God speaks

Postby flergalwit » 06 Sep 2015, 09:27

Of course you could have seen it. You might have seen it before it was removed. Just as some people did with Siggy's comment.

I didn't say it hasn't been made public. I said he hasn't made it public. I and a few other have, without being asked to by him.

Sky: I honestly find Pride somewhat leftist too. I didn't like that Pride London appeared to have banned UKIP from marching (allegedly on health and safety grounds but it's hard to see this decision as apolitical). I don't agree with UKIP and wouldn't vote for them but they are no more extreme on the right side of the spectrum than say the Greens are on the left side. Honestly I think Pride is better off dropping politics from its agenda completely, but that's a minority opinion.

User avatar
KAGU143
Administrator
Posts: 1242
Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 10:09

Re: God speaks

Postby KAGU143 » 06 Sep 2015, 09:32

There is a recurrent habit of criticizing DJ here at Apositive, but I think it's important to keep it civil.
(And it has been, so far, so thanks everybody! :))

Speaking only for myself, I don't have any issue with DJ's political views and I will always owe him a debt of gratitude for his work in making asexuality better known.
He is, after all, indirectly responsible for me finding and marrying Kæth, so . . . yes. I will be eternally grateful for that.

The only serious criticism I have of him, and I think this one is valid, is that I feel he has failed to be the leader that AVEN needs, and apparently he has failed to acknowledge that AVEN even needs a leader. He won't do it and he won't let anybody else do it either.
I think he has enough knowledge about civics to be aware that government by a popularly elected committee is one of the worst and most inefficient governmental systems in existence, yet he has left AVEN with no other choice. I feel like he should know better, and I'm very disappointed in him for not following through and helping to maintain the original, open-minded spirit of what he built.
AVEN may be a lot of things, but open-minded is no longer one of them. The proof of that is easy for anybody to find.

There are other things about him that I don't entirely approve of, but my personal opinions are of little importance in the grand scheme of things and, besides, the same could be said about every single person I've ever met.
Including the one in the mirror!
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: God speaks

Postby flergalwit » 06 Sep 2015, 09:45

My recollection is that there was a head admin at one point (either appointed by DJ or elected - not sure) and that really didn't work out well. Before my time though.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 06 Sep 2015, 09:47

I don;t think our opinions differ too much Nancy

I will always be appreciative of the history of aven in that he along with others set aven up but it is quite clear on occasion the team have lost their way or combined with personal vendetta campaigns against members that he should have been stepping in to say enough is enough but instead he has left them to their own devices that has often led the team in quite a mess and aven facing consequences that as we see right now...with hardly anyone wanting to join the team

Safe place..often quoted as aven being one..the only safe place in aven....is the secret place the admods hide behind..and dj must be aware of that but is letting it happen

User avatar
KAGU143
Administrator
Posts: 1242
Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 10:09

Re: God speaks

Postby KAGU143 » 06 Sep 2015, 09:52

flergalwit wrote:My recollection is that there was a head admin at one point (either appointed by DJ or elected - not sure) and that really didn't work out well. Before my time though.


I think that Cate Perfect might have been considered a head admin, perhaps by default since she was the only admin for quite a while (besides DJ), but if there was ever an official designation as such I don't remember it.
AVEN was a very different kind of place back then.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: God speaks

Postby flergalwit » 06 Sep 2015, 23:48

KAGU143 wrote:
flergalwit wrote:My recollection is that there was a head admin at one point (either appointed by DJ or elected - not sure) and that really didn't work out well. Before my time though.


I think that Cate Perfect might have been considered a head admin, perhaps by default since she was the only admin for quite a while (besides DJ), but if there was ever an official designation as such I don't remember it.
AVEN was a very different kind of place back then.

Cate describes herself as head admin here:

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1171 ... rom-admod/

Looking through that thread, I'm not convinced the "system" was working any better back then (10 years ago) than it is now. Actually I got the general feeling that quite a lot hasn't changed...

More generally I don't see the connection between having a clear head and being open minded. With a clear head, power would be concentrated in an even smaller group of people (a single person in fact), which would make them more likely to moderate based on their personal views. With a larger team there is more diversity of opinion. The downsides are inefficiencies through having to agree "everything" by committee consensus, and the possibility of group-think of course.

And honestly that's always been the real problem with the admod team's structure imo - inefficiency not power abuse.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 07 Sep 2015, 00:13

When a ship has no rudder it wanders aimlessly

if the larger team with no direction worked...you wouldn't have such a high turn over of mods or such a low interest in running for the various teams

You say innefficiency and not power abuse...you do so from a priviliged position Michael...and can assure you when your on the other end of it...it is definately abuse.

User avatar
SpanishDuchess
Super Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 02 Sep 2015, 01:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SpanishDuchess » 07 Sep 2015, 01:19

He tweeted:
Hanging put with my grandpa and his nobel prize winning economist friend. Yipes!
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks. ~Arthur Miller

User avatar
KAGU143
Administrator
Posts: 1242
Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 10:09

Re: God speaks

Postby KAGU143 » 07 Sep 2015, 05:23

It was interesting to look through the old thread in that link you posted, Flerg.
Those were the days ...

There was a lot going on at that time that wasn't evident from just what was posted. Now, based on my memory ... (might be accurate, might not be, but the basics are probably pretty close)

Nugan .... *grits teeth* .... Nugan wanted to turn AVEN into a dating forum, despite the fact that it is - and always has been - open to people as young as 13.
He was like a dog with a bone and he would NOT give it up; it was his own special project but very few others on the team thought it was a good idea.
AVEN's short-lived (and now, thankfully, long-gone) "Personals" forum was a paedophiles dream come true, but Nugan was furious when it was taken down.
He developed a particular dislike for Kæth (who had first been appointed to the team by DJ rather than elected) and was always hounding him and trying to have him removed. Kæth was vehemently opposed to the "Personals" forum for his own personal reasons, and his posts helped to solidify everybody else's objections to it. That caused Nugan to see him as an enemy.

ASF and Orbit were very close together, opinion-wise, and tended to vote together, but they were an anomaly at the time, being older and having children, so they were sometimes condescending towards the rest of the team. That didn't go over well at all. I liked Orbit/Hawke, and I agreed with her most of the time, but ASF was barely even established as a member when he became a mod. I always thought that he was a poor choice but we tried to make the best of it.
I think he ended up quitting and leaving in a huff, but I'm not sure. I don't *think* he was banned (?) but he wasn't a mod for very long. Orbit became a minor thorn in the side and probably would have been banned eventually if it were happening today, but I don't actually recall when or why she left. I think she gradually lost interest and faded away. Not sure.

So, Flerg, can you see why I've decided that Apositive has to be run in a different way?
Even in the very early years, starting shortly after the first public elections to choose mods, AVEN's admod team was already splitting into factions that were barely able to work together without fighting.
The humor and joking around behind the scenes was an effort to try to keep everybody on good terms. It didn't always work, but I think it helped, and I suspect that it still happens today. If not, then that's a loss for everybody.

To find a sample of the way AVEN functioned before the first public elections, you will have to dig even deeper into its history.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 07 Sep 2015, 06:55

The irony of course is that apositive has hardly any modding and yet remains quite civilised...aven on the other hand is now being run like the Stazi and has more member vs admods debates, more warnings, more nudges and more bans

Some may argue it's the numbers I would say they are wrong...how you mod is just as important as how many of you mod.

User avatar
KAGU143
Administrator
Posts: 1242
Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 10:09

Re: God speaks

Postby KAGU143 » 07 Sep 2015, 11:41

My personal feeling is that the vast majority of people will make an effort to follow the rules as long as they understand them and feel that they are equally applied to everybody.

The admods have to work together for that to happen, though, and if there is conflict within the team then it will inevitably spill over into the open forum.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

User avatar
SpanishDuchess
Super Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 02 Sep 2015, 01:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SpanishDuchess » 07 Sep 2015, 23:45

PiF wrote:he treats aven like an ex girlfriend..something he doesn't want any longer himself but doesn't want anyone else having it

Mr Jay is polyamorous. He has several girlfriends at the same time.
He's very busy with his love life. Maybe that's why he has no time to post on AVEN. (I'm just joking :mrgreen:)
He tweeted:
Don't let the fight take the love out of you, don't let love take the fight out of you.
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks. ~Arthur Miller

User avatar
SpanishDuchess
Super Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 02 Sep 2015, 01:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SpanishDuchess » 08 Sep 2015, 02:07

KAGU143 wrote:My personal feeling is that the vast majority of people will make an effort to follow the rules as long as they understand them and feel that they are equally applied to everybody.

Exactly. You totally get it! Justice means laws should apply equally to all.
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks. ~Arthur Miller

flergalwit
Mega Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 09:02

Re: God speaks

Postby flergalwit » 08 Sep 2015, 04:36

There always is a hell of a lot of stuff going on that isn't obvious to those not in the thick of it. I honestly think that would be true even if there was no private admods only forum; I reckon all the "interesting" stuff would end up happening on skype or other platforms.

KAGU143 wrote:So, Flerg, can you see why I've decided that Apositive has to be run in a different way?

I haven't said apositive should be run like AVEN is. On the other hand, I think apositive could not be run the way it is if it had AVEN's size, visibility and traffic. (Maybe that's a reason to hope it never obtains that?) Or to be more precise, if it was run in the same way, the result would be a) constant flamewars, b) constant attacks from tumblr and other social media. It would also be far too big a job for a single person or even 2 people, unless it became a full time occupation, which means a team of some sort would be needed and then that whole can of worms is opened...

I am prepared to defend the admods in applying the rules equally. To first order I believe that's true. Of course it isn't perfectly true as admods (like anyone else) make errors, which means that some get away with something that another didn't. Plus sometimes decisions are decided in the long run to be an error, and thus what one person was warned for years ago another might not be now, or vice versa. And of course no-one is 100% objective, and some are more less-than-100% objective than others. But these are very much second order error bars to the general point.

And by the way, the majority of people on AVEN follow the rules without issue. That is a value-neutral statement (I'm not making any judgement on those who have been adjudged as not following them), simply a response to Nancy's last statement.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 08 Sep 2015, 06:54

flergalwit wrote:I haven't said apositive should be run like AVEN is. On the other hand, I think apositive could not be run the way it is if it had AVEN's size, visibility and traffic. (Maybe that's a reason to hope it never obtains that?) Or to be more precise, if it was run in the same way, the result would be a) constant flamewars, b) constant attacks from tumblr and other social media. It would also be far too big a job for a single person or even 2 people, unless it became a full time occupation, which means a team of some sort would be needed and then that whole can of worms is opened...


I would not agree Michael...good mods are good mods no matter the size of the membership or the size of the forum..a good team will always find a way to avoid drama or deal with it in a populous way when it arises often seeing all sides at least understanding each other even if you do not agree..there has been a long history of poor skills leading to mod abuse towards members however when it comes to avens way of doing things

Avens mods by majority vote creates most of the drama it experiences and lashes out at with bannings, nudges and warnings to use as a bully stick to intimidate members to hide the avoidable drama caused by those mods

flergalwit wrote:I am prepared to defend the admods in applying the rules equally. To first order I believe that's true. Of course it isn't perfectly true as admods (like anyone else) make errors, which means that some get away with something that another didn't. Plus sometimes decisions are decided in the long run to be an error, and thus what one person was warned for years ago another might not be now, or vice versa. And of course no-one is 100% objective, and some are more less-than-100% objective than others. But these are very much second order error bars to the general point.


Not entirely..the amount of mods bad decisions/actions I feel shows it's true figure with the real turnover of admin volunteers and as we have seen..however you discount the dramas...it is incredibly rare for an admod or group of admods to face the consequences that they insist members face when breaches of the tos take place

I would suggest when the team screw up that we have a reverse assessment and judgement...currently if a member is alledged to have broken the rules the mods vote...what i would like to see is when the mods screw up..and they do often..that the breech be put out for a member poll..this would allow a level playing field and before you say it would be the drama..not if it is limited to purely a yes or no vote

It's unlikely admods are ever going to be responsible in aven...accountable...or operate in any other way than lash out at those who disagree with them or point out the abuses

flergalwit wrote:And by the way, the majority of people on AVEN follow the rules without issue. That is a value-neutral statement (I'm not making any judgement on those who have been adjudged as not following them), simply a response to Nancy's last statement.


I'm afraid we will never be allowed to know if that is true or not Michael until aven publishes yearly figures for nudges, warns and bans..you also have to take into account it's not only many in Apositive that knows/believes admods rule by hit lists and not by good judgement...any forum ruled by fear and bullying is hardly a standard to be held aloft as a standard bearer do you not think?

User avatar
KAGU143
Administrator
Posts: 1242
Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 10:09

Re: God speaks

Postby KAGU143 » 08 Sep 2015, 08:06

I'm not convinced that AVEN's admod team has a hit list, but I know that they do have individual likes and dislikes.
Humans, even when they are trying their very best to be fair, have a tendency to let their personal feelings affect their judgement.

Case in point: Are PiF's comments about Kelley always completely fair, unbiased, and 100% factual?

*walks away, whistling innocently*
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 15 Sep 2015, 01:38

The simplest way to describe it is...the same people that Aven have an issue with...do not seem to have an issue in Apositive but yet they are the same people

User avatar
SpanishDuchess
Super Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 02 Sep 2015, 01:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SpanishDuchess » 15 Sep 2015, 06:22

PiF wrote:the same people that Aven have an issue with...do not seem to have an issue in Apositive but yet they are the same people

That's a good point! :halo:
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks. ~Arthur Miller

User avatar
Tanwen
Mega Member
Posts: 882
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 07:00

Re: God speaks

Postby Tanwen » 15 Sep 2015, 06:38

KAGU143 wrote:I'm not convinced that AVEN's admod team has a hit list, but I know that they do have individual likes and dislikes.
Humans, even when they are trying their very best to be fair, have a tendency to let their personal feelings affect their judgement.

Case in point: Are PiF's comments about Kelley always completely fair, unbiased, and 100% factual?

*walks away, whistling innocently*


Nancy, you only have to look at the declassified threads to be under no illusion how Kelly felt about PiF ;)
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

PiF
Apositive Star
Posts: 2265
Joined: 14 Nov 2011, 22:47

Re: God speaks

Postby PiF » 15 Sep 2015, 08:45

Looking at the few declasses it is clear Kelly was/is unable to make an impartial decision about ANYTHING I was involved in.

She doesn't have to like me and as Michael pointed out I maybe marmite to a few but here is the rub..it's not just me it is happening too

when you volunteer as a admod it is on the understanding that when tos situations arise...every single situation be adjudged on that event and as a admod impartiality is the key ...if you are making tos decisions having surrended your impartiality and have a clear dislike of an individual leading to an inability to make tos decisions with their intended clear process...then you should remove yourself from that process by either abstaining knowing you cannot be impartial...or standing down as an admod because you are no longer able to carry out the role as you had first intended as was required to do so

most such as Kelly know they are acting with deliberate intent against an individual and in a biased way but seem to think they can get away with it. The team who see this happening but allow it to continue can then only blame themselves for the bad reputation the team are getting

it is like someone cheating at exams, knowing they cheated but still use the exscuse "the ends justify the means".....if the team want to stop the team being tarred with the same brush then the team need to have more integrity about them and stop blaming those victims of this abuse for raising the fact the abuse is taking place...blaming the victim is not a cool thing to do and certianly not something an independent impartial admod or team of admods should find acceptable

but if they get away with it once and not one of the team stands up to that, then it happens again, and again and it gets to the point that those who might have stood up to it happening before ,have repeatedly not...then suddenly they are a willing party to that continual abuse and are now in a difficult place having been part of that known abuse

Like I said..if some think they can get away with it once then they will continue to do it and suddenly the list of victims of this abuse of position grows and that is no what a admod should be about so suddenly it is seen as the norm and multiple members start to get the attention and then the amount of admods that think it is okay increases and the amount of victims starts to get more and more

User avatar
KAGU143
Administrator
Posts: 1242
Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 10:09

Re: God speaks

Postby KAGU143 » 18 Sep 2015, 06:02

Tanwen wrote:
KAGU143 wrote:I'm not convinced that AVEN's admod team has a hit list, but I know that they do have individual likes and dislikes.
Humans, even when they are trying their very best to be fair, have a tendency to let their personal feelings affect their judgement.

Case in point: Are PiF's comments about Kelley always completely fair, unbiased, and 100% factual?

*walks away, whistling innocently*


Nancy, you only have to look at the declassified threads to be under no illusion how Kelly felt about PiF ;)


Oh, I already know how Kelly feels about PiF. That was clearly evident when I was an admod. I don't think she can fully trust ANY strongly opinionated men who behave assertively, because that personality type triggers a lot of bad memories from her past.
That doesn't make her a bad person, but it does make it very hard for her to be unbiased when dealing with what is, after all, a rather substantial percentage of humankind. She does try, and I know that she realizes there's a problem, but a few people, such as PiF, are so blunt and dismissive of other's feelings when they express themselves that it's just too much for her.

The point of my comment was that it's human nature to let one's personal feelings cloud ones judgement, and that none of us are 100% free of that flaw.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

User avatar
SubHuman
Regular Member
Posts: 107
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 09:15

Re: God speaks

Postby SubHuman » 18 Sep 2015, 21:48

Tanwen wrote:
KAGU143 wrote:I'm not convinced that AVEN's admod team has a hit list, but I know that they do have individual likes and dislikes.
Humans, even when they are trying their very best to be fair, have a tendency to let their personal feelings affect their judgement.

Case in point: Are PiF's comments about Kelley always completely fair, unbiased, and 100% factual?

*walks away, whistling innocently*


Nancy, you only have to look at the declassified threads to be under no illusion how Kelly felt about PiF ;)


Do you got links to these threads?


Return to “Community & Public Visibility”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 1 guest