Avens backroom caught red handed

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Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:58 am

For many of us who are vocal, we have been aware that over the last several years there has been grave concerns that avens backroom have been applying nudges/warns/bans based on who they are dealing with rather than as an independent assesors of a situation

over the last two years the numerous updates of the tos have seen it move from relatively understandable and clear rules for all to updates that allow so much leighway that the abuse ability that was always there has now been almost rubber stamped with many..may's, mights, could etc. This has led to abuse and as recently as yesterday it had been hidden behind avens closed doors

A number of aven members recently challenged a very good friend of one of the admins as they have put themselves forward for an election, the problem? this member had been caught with several sock accounts on various sites. as allowed by the rules when it went to question stage questions were asked however instead of the backroom banning that person or forbidding them from running, they gave a warning to one of those who questioned the suitability of the candidate.

The irony is that no member complained about the questions but..the complaint was lodged by..that individuals best mate..who is an admin on the forum

the person who asked the questions and received the warning appealed the process and it was refused so stood.....some in avens backroom having had enough of the corruption and abuse decided to breach protocol and offered the following threads

I'd like to past them if allowed for people to make their own mind up about how aven mods operate

http://www.avalanchecommunity.org/forum ... readID=478

http://www.avalanchecommunity.org/forum ... readID=477

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:04 am

Is it a private forum?
It won't allow me in. (I haven't tried to register since I know nothing about the place.)
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:47 am

Hi Nancy, I believe the front page is visible but if you want to go into the subjects then i just found out you have to be a member..apologies

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:12 pm

under the guise of sql resolution aven has been taken down till later..i think mdt but not sure which one. A smart move on coles part, not sure really where aven goes from here

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:34 am

Okay, I did my best to wade through it all and I have come away from it with one main conclusion:

The faces may change, but the game stays the same. Some people are jerks. Some people don't like other people. Some people don't get their own way so they throw a tantrum ... and the sun still comes up in the east.

If I were in a position to make any changes over there I would do it, but I'm not. You might have noticed that there are no elections and no "Admods Only" forums here at Apositive. It is my intention that there never will be.
The biggest reason for that could be explained by looking at the links you just posted.

Bottom line: government by committee doesn't work, and elections based on popularity lead to selection of the people who:
A) best know how to manipulate others' feelings, or
B) have the most friends on the board.
Those people are not always the best choice as admods. I would even go so far as to suggest that they are rarely the best choice because the first kind are too often little more than con artists, and the second kind will have a conflict of interest if any of their friends become involved in a dispute. It appears that the second case is what is happening in this situation.

The usernames at Avalanche are mostly unfamiliar to me, but my gut feeling is that I would be condemned right along with the rest of the admod team if I were still involved with AVEN. It wouldn't matter how hard I tried to be fair and objective and to follow the rules. After all, there were people who disliked me when I was a mod at AVEN and they wanted me gone because I had been on the team for about 7 years. I finally left because DJ had created a governmental monstrosity that could never be salvaged. Trying to make the best of it wore me out, and I'm glad to be away from that whole mess.
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:52 pm

Interestingly most of the admods of aven have accounts in avalanche..some are by the same name and some tried to sneak in pretending to be others and one..an admin in aven had two accounts...hows that for double standards ay kelly lol

Whilst apositive is slower ..i have full trust in here as it is a purer asexual forum in that it seems to remember that admods are here to enable open inputs and not..be the police and executioners of it's members that voted them in as it is in aven

the quality of admods in aven particulary through the last few elections has seen very much most people looking at the choices as though there is no choice at all with all as equally bad as the others..rarely do you get a good one get through although there has been that rarity

to be honest Nancy if you went into avalanche i doubt you would receive a bad welcome, we have some ex mods there and even the current ones aren't always unpopular but agree at the momment given the proof we have of campaigns against some members and abuse of powers by thebackroom..it's probably not a good time to be an aven mod in avalanche..that will pass again though as avalanche is much more than just issues with aven

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby Lady Girl » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:18 am

You can also take a look at http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/85840-lets-hear-some-answers/ if you feel like wading through it. There are some interesting views. It is not entirely a power or friends/enemies issue as many didn't personally know the person. At any rate, some of us (not so sure about the breaching member of the team) are just trying to be decent moderators because we appreciate what AVEN has done for us and are trying to give back to the community.

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:42 pm

Thanks for posting that, Lady Girl.
I know there is always more than one side to a story. I don't know any of the people involved so I don't have any personal biases, but the personality "types" and the way they inevitably seem to interact are all too familiar to me.

I thought about commenting, but decided against it. There isn't anything I could add that hasn't already been said.
In my opinion, the only person in the whole mess who is genuinely deserving of discipline is "Breachzilla" - the one who breached the posts from the hidden forum to the Avalanche forum for the sole purpose of causing trouble and division in AVEN's admod team.
I don't say this because I think a hidden forum should be some sort of sacred ground (I don't) but because rules are rules, and because I think a person who is so immature and self-absorbed that they feel justified in breaking rules they don't like doesn't deserve access to classified information.

Realistically though, I think it would be better to change the entire governmental structure at AVEN, and the first step should be to eliminate ALL of the hidden forums.
The Admod's Only forum should be locked for posting to everybody except the admods, but it should be visible to all registered members in good standing who have over a certain minimum post count.
In other words, the general public and banned members wouldn't be able to see it, but anybody who had stuck around long enough to get involved in the community should be able to see what's going on behind the scenes. It would allow the members to see how diligently the various mods go about their duties, and I think it would also be a great help to allow prospective admods to see what they would be getting into if they run for office and get elected.

Kæth and I made this same suggestion more than once when we were part of AVEN's admod team, but too many of the other team members wanted to keep their hidden sanctuary and the idea was always rejected.
Maybe it would be worth trotting it out again and seeing if the prevailing opinions have changed?
'Just a thought ...
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby Lady Girl » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:04 am

I almost didn't post in the "let's hear some answers" thread either, but did eventually make a few brief comments. I personally feel that a three month first warning for what I still feel was inappropriate behavior in the election thread is fairly mild for the uproar it caused. That aside though, the breaching is a poor way to expose a "corrupt" back room. I think it's interesting that they claim to be risking themselves and yet do not come forth. That seems slightly cowardly to me.

I have actually thought about the hidden forums being visible before and have a few reservations. I don't think it would prevent other members from commenting if it were locked to them...they would simply start other threads. I think it might take away from being somewhat candid about ideas and so forth. Most of all, it would be difficult to discuss reports as members do not want to know who has been warned and for what. One other problem would be sensitive issues. I wonder if a partially visible portion would help at all, I like what you said about people knowing about duties fulfilled.

Having said that, I am all for declassifying threads as rapidly as possible. I also hold myself to a certain standard, and make every effort to post as if people are seeing it because I am under the assumption that one day they will. To me, the ToS applies in the admod forums just as it does on the board and I personally feel that it is very important to conduct myself in as professional a manner as possible. I don't think any of us were very concerned with what was breached as much we were bothered by the fact that someone did breach.

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:45 am

The main reason I keep going back to suggesting that the Admods Only forum be made visible is that I was part of AVEN before it even existed, and things worked just fine without it.
The distrust and paranoia about what the admods might be doing "in secret" wasn't an issue at all, and the type of behavior that could earn a warning was no secret either because we could all see it.

Reminiscing ...
(Don't want to see your name dragged through the mud, bozo? Then follow the dad-blasted rules! Nobody is going to be treated like a "special little snowflake" so get over it. Tough love all the way!)

I still miss the good old days ... *sigh*
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby Lady Girl » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:12 am

I can see your point! That would have been interesting. I wonder if it would work these days, the site seems so big now. I don't know why, but I always laugh when I hear special snowflake!

Things sure have changed I know. I've only been there two years, and a mod for six months now. Thanks for your input!

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:54 pm

Well, I've been to the Avalanche forums several times now, and I've come to the conclusion that they're probably not worth bothering with.
Not a friendly group (I've been totally ignored), and as far as I can tell they're not doing anything at all to help the cause of asexual awareness since the site can't even be seen unless people register and join.
It's just a few people, mostly asexual elitists, and they seem to be focused almost entirely on complaining about AVEN. It's not the first site like that and it probably won't be the last.
.....*yawn*

I may give their chat room a try, just in case that's where they mostly hang out, but ... *doubtful*

(The funny thing is that I agree with many of their complaints, maybe even most of them, but still - I think it's a pretty shallow basis for an entire website and that makes me suspicious of their motives - even when they seem to have legitimately valid issues.)
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:38 pm

Not all of us are shallow

Where some see complaining about aven... Others see the largest asexual site constantly allowing misrepresenting what an asexual is and that for some asexuals it's almost forgotten it's outset in being a site for asexuals and is now largely dominated by everything but

Should you dare say anything about asexuals feeling isolated within an asexual site then your branded elitist

As to unfriendly, possibly but being honest Nancy... I know your busy at work so much ghat we rarely see you on the forums and most wouldn't remember your time on aven as some of us do

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:36 am

That's certainly a possible reason for why it felt so unwelcoming, PiF.
The main thing I was picking up on was that there was no response or acknowledgement to any of my early posts. None whatsoever. I suppose that's better than being openly attacked, but still ... it was giving me some weird vibes.

And I didn't call any of the members shallow - not at all - what I meant was that it's a very self-limiting basis for a message board. At least, that's my opinion based on all of the boards that I have seen come and go. I could always be wrong, ya know. :P After all, it DID happen once in 1967. (JK!)

As you know, I don't entirely agree with AVEN's current portrayal of asexuality either, but I look at it somewhat differently.
The nature of asexuality is that it will always be very hard to define with absolutely definitive terms. There was a huge amount of very in-depth thought that went into the original inverted triangle logo/emblem and I think that, unfortunately, much of that careful consideration has been forgotten or dismissed as unimportant.
Basically, the bottom of the triangle is formed by TWO intersecting lines, and that's no accident. It (the black bottom tip) signifies both lack of libido AND lack of attraction. The shaded areas, (which I actually suggested "way back when" - and it was accepted!) signify the fact that very few people are 100% consistent in anything, with sexuality being no exception.

Since AVEN has drifted off on a tangent, maybe it would be interesting to take another look at the origins of the logo that people have come to take for granted.
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:30 am

Certianly due to it's small size it is very clicky made up of largely a dozen or so regular posters with most of the aven team watching lol so on that basis yes I could see why it would be an immediate recognition but more of a gradual build up..even more so when people have been away from the internet forum arena

I agree that any board that basis it's entirity on what aven is doing wrong rarely last..the fact they keep springing up keeps me in hope of avens backroom will get a eureka momment eventually

Aven is to asexuality what the titanic was to safe sailing..everyone has heard of it and everyone knows it's fucked up, it is no longer a place for asexuals as it's almost entirely temporary self claimed wrongly suggesting asexuals and sexuals desperate to be different bu calling themselves "shades"

truth is when it started aven was for asexuals and we as long term asexuals have lost that resource in aven...perhaps it needs the modern fakery to keep going it has become facebook/tumbler 2.0 where people seeing it as a social site that happens to have asexuality in the title

will that change? .....unlikely....it will become like an iphone and wil be like one of those things people say when they get older...do you remember when we identified as asexual..lol how silly were we...whilst the life long asexuals slink into the background afraid to say they are because temporary has become more popular than honest longevity

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby flergalwit » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:54 pm

KAGU143 wrote:Basically, the bottom of the triangle is formed by TWO intersecting lines, and that's no accident. It (the black bottom tip) signifies both lack of libido AND lack of attraction.

Nancy, this is a new claim to me. The triangle I've always known has the homosexual-bisexual-heterosexual line at the top; the bottom of the triangle signifies lack of attraction to men and lack of attraction to women. In other words, it's entirely sexual attraction based. This is in line with the definition of asexuality.

I notice, as is common and happens more times than I can count, aven is being "accused" (for want of a better word) of opposite faults at the same time. PiF thinks we don't hammer home the "lack of sexual attraction" definition consistently or clearly enough. Nancy, as far as I can tell, thinks that our adherence to the "lack of sexual attraction" definition means we've "drifted on a tangent". (Please correct me if I'm wrong here.)

My only conclusion is that you can't please all people all the time - or even all "long term asexuals" - as different people have different expectations from the asexual community and movement. As you'd expect.

EDIT: re: avalanche, Nancy, the core memberbase is a group of friends who've known each other a long time - and who communicate primarily through skype rather than the forums - though new people do join regularly. You'd probably get a better welcome (or at least, an existent one) if you posted an intro in the welcome area. (I never posted an intro on AVEN itself when I first joined - I dived straight in - and many of my early posts were indeed ignored but I wasn't bothered particularly...)

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:36 pm

It's not that aven doesn't hammer home what an asexual is Michael, but more they continue to promote by allowance of what an asexual isn't

be honest if you wanted to know what an asexual is then the front page is all you need, you have to concede that the doubt around asexuality and what one is happens when you go from avens front page and into the forums

Yes I do know what a business model is and can see the benefits of what aven is doing,..if that was your model of choice then having 500 pretend and wrongly identified asexuals spreading the word works better than 2 real asexuals spreading accurate but a slower awareness ... However the real cost in misinformation and innacuracy is not a cost some of us I suggest, want to pay. Nor should we accept the Facebook glitz and glam style of falseness that currently exists within our current "leader and his disciples" who I feel are doing more harm than good in others believing we are genuine

but that goes back to what we have discussed before and ties in with the lgbt conversations before in that a wrongfull association under the guise of little accuracy but speed ..actually does more damage to the asexual movement and message and so we have places like aven where the blunderbuss of an innacurate projection wipes out what is and isn't...you then as I have said before...have the very forum for asexuality..being an uncomforteable place for real asexuals..and a indefinate ammunition pile for our doubters

The kinsey scale then...I've never been a fan of it but understand as a refernce point some feel it's important

as to the "you can't please all the people all the time" those who use it regulary tend to be pleasing no one.... My expectation is as simple as it's always been, accurate projection of what is and isn't an asexual and then awareness based on that

on that one basic wish, aven fails everytime. Why? simply dj..he pays very little time on aven because I feel it is following his planned direction to remain visible enough to push his own agenda of public life through his forum

I've often wondered if his wish genuinely was to promote asexuality accurately ..would he be so absent from aven..I personally feel not... I personally feel that if accuracy was his goal then he, as many real asexuals..would be dissapointed at avens content and inaccurate promotion of asexuality

As that is never likely to happen then I would say for real asexuals over fake ones...aven has very little to offer

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby Tanwen » Fri May 17, 2013 3:32 am

I really ought to drop in more often but health problems and 3 dogs + AVEN limits my ability to do much more than tread water :(
I haven't joined Avalanche, so any links are lost to me. Doppel didn't think much of me when he was Tech Admin on AVEN and I'm not about to let him or Fae 'out' me over there :p . I have nothing but contempt for the one who breached, there are many times things are said in Admods Only that I violently disagree with (haven't changed, Nancy :D ) but I would never post either on or off AVEN. Admods are custodians of AVEN, it isn't our private playground. Sometimes matters are confidential and should not be discussed in public reports for example. I'm human, I can't like everyone but when a report is raised the sole concern is 'has it contravened the ToS'? - personal feelings must be put to one side but if that is impossible then 'abstain' is an option. There's also the other side of the coin - you can be accused of being too friendly with someone!
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Fri May 17, 2013 7:47 pm

Alas, I remember it well.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't ... people who have never worked behind the scenes at AVEN have NO idea what goes on - they just imagine the worst and assume that it's true.
'Glad I'm free of that mess!
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:25 am

It's the dammed if you do dammed if you don't used to often by avens back room to justify lets not do anything about the re-occuring problems?, as to not knowing...when you speak to dj often enough you start to realise where every thing has issue and the head in the sand politics comes from

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:45 am

To be fair, I don't think that DJ is all of the problem. (Not that he's entirely innocent, but there are some other issues at work.)

AVEN ran pretty smoothly up until they started allowing the admods to be chosen by popular election.
At that point, popularity became more important than competence and good judgement. 'Not saying that the membership is totally stupid - they're not - but they tend to elect people who are afraid to rock the boat or to lose friends, simply because those people are also perceived as being "nice".
The result is that the rules have been changed, repeatedly, to try to make the site into a "safe place" where nobody will ever get hurt or offended.

Of course that's not possible, but here is where a sort of collective stupidity becomes evident: despite the fact that the system isn't working, they keep doing the same thing over and over and hoping that it will eventually produce a different result.
AVEN has a noticeable dislike for those in authority, probably mostly due to the age demographics of the site being strongly skewed toward adolescence.
If you imagine a playground where the kids are completely in charge, that's AVEN.
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby flergalwit » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:27 am

The "damned if you do damned if you don't" thing is said not to justify anything, but because it's true. The AVEN admods were castigated for not making an aromantic subforum. And yet other people, such as yourself PiF, are critical even about the compromise they came up with, seeing it as "an aromantic forum through the back door" . Some people - especially here and on avalanche - think AVEN is too sensitive, too safe etc. Others, who in my view greatly outnumber the critics here and on Av, think AVEN is a cispit of misogyny, transphobia, racism etc etc. In fact there are even blogs out there devoted to calling out AVEN's alleged rape culture, misogyny etc etc. So AVEN is either too PC or not PC enough depending on whom you ask.

AVEN tries to be everything to everyone, which is in some ways a laudable aim, but in the final analysis it's simply impossible. If you make things too safe, you stifle the open exchange of ideas and vice versa. So it occupies a middle grounds, which makes some people unhappy from all ends of the spectrum. But I can live with that.

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby jmb » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:11 pm

KAGU143 wrote: The result is that the rules have been changed, repeatedly, to try to make the site into a "safe place" where nobody will ever get hurt or offended.


It's unfortunate that they don't know that's not the meaning of "safe space." Anyone who's ever attended a GLBT meeting could tell you that. "Safe place" means you're accepted and allowed to explore your (in this case) sexual orientation. That while you may be challenged, raising the questions, holding the discussions, etc. is acceptable/encouraged. (Something which seems lacking often on AVEN, in the spirit of keeping AVEN "safe.")

flergalwit wrote:AVEN tries to be everything to everyone, which is in some ways a laudable aim, but in the final analysis it's simply impossible. If you make things too safe, you stifle the open exchange of ideas and vice versa. So it occupies a middle grounds, which makes some people unhappy from all ends of the spectrum. But I can live with that.


So AVEN should stop trying to be all things to all people. Rather than trying to only appeal to the 'mass market' (who may or may not actually be asexual) they should focus on one area do it WELL (say visibility and education - meaning they step back form the forums, etc. and become a clearing house of information/place for activists/media to goto). That would allow/encourage people to create their own sites to fill other specific needs and they could focus on those areas (Forums, sites specific to Gray-As/aros/homoromatic/heteromantic/etc). Then, rather than AVEN saying "We're first and we're the best and the rest of you STFU." There could be a really powerful web presence of SEVERAL sites all working together rather than "competing." It could be like a webring, all the sites referencing each other, but AVEN would be the main site for it, linking to all the others. AVEN could even have links/contacts for all the different meet-up groups - rather than referencing people to the forums which may or may not provide the information people are looking for.

EDIT: was to correct bad html formatting.
Last edited by jmb on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:47 am

flergalwit wrote:AVEN tries to be everything to everyone, which is in some ways a laudable aim, but in the final analysis it's simply impossible. If you make things too safe, you stifle the open exchange of ideas and vice versa. So it occupies a middle grounds, which makes some people unhappy from all ends of the spectrum. But I can live with that.


Perhaps then Michael they have tried to be master of of all trades instead of an expert of one..asexuality. I agree with Nancy that popularist elections ..even more so given the core group being teen girls...often sees the wrong person elected.

If the current way worked in a way that this level of confusion kept happening, as it does..then at some stage it should have been what ever we are doing is fucking it up on a regular basis, but as we know the backroom rarely takes responsibility

Perhaps it should be..hey..we have a vacancy..submit your wish to become part of the backroom and we will decide who is the best fit by majority vote of the backroom. Yes it does mean people like me will never get the lick arse vote but then the message should be more important than any one person...this should also be backed up with a 2 year term though to give new blood and relevant, also no more dead mans shoes

Confusion about what an asexual is IS largely caused by Aven and what it allows and promotes

We have a owner/face of asexuality who is bisexual but doesn't say so openly because he doesn't want asexuality to be seen as "a gay thing"

They then try and say asexuality isn't "a gay thing" whilst at the same time going to "pride" marches and using a flag which looks like the colours of a african/eastern european country made out of an old mans pair of underpants

They say it isn't a teen phase but yet 85% of avens is teens

They say asexuality is the lack of sexual attraction but then say you can be asexual and still be sexually attracted to someone in halves

They say Aven is an asexual website but it is 85% non correct asexual

At some point avens back room need to look at the messages they send out and realise the messages they send out if anything, shows asexuals are more likely not to be

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby flergalwit » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:17 am

jmb wrote:
KAGU143 wrote: The result is that the rules have been changed, repeatedly, to try to make the site into a "safe place" where nobody will ever get hurt or offended.


It's unfortunate that they don't know that's not the meaning of "safe space." Anyone who's ever attended a GLBT meeting could tell you that. "Safe place" means you're accepted and allowed to explore your (in this case) sexual orientation. That while you may be challenged, raising the questions, holding the discussions, etc. is acceptable/encouraged. (Something which seems lacking often on AVEN, in the spirit of keeping AVEN "safe.")

This is precisely backwards. AVEN is an order of magnitude MORE accepting of unconventional and non-PC views than any LGBT safe space I've been involved with. Some LGBT leaning aces do not regard AVEN as safe for precisely this reason.

jmb wrote:That would allow/encourage people to create their own sites to fill other specific needs and they could focus on those areas (Forums, sites specific to Gray-As/aros/homoromatic/heteromantic/etc). Then, rather than AVEN saying "We're first and we're the best and the rest of you STFU."

I am genuinely shocked that you write obvious garbage such as this, and I'm very surprised at Nancy for thanking your post. It's obvious you know virtually nothing about AVEN if you think our attitude is "We're first and we're the best and the rest of you STFU."

For my part I've long wanted decent alternatives to AVEN - discussion forums that is. The problem is, with the possible exception of apositive (which suffers from low traffic), there ain't any. (There's Avalanche, which can be fun, but I don't regard it as a serious place for discussion. Apart from that it's Tumblr, which is dominated by social justice warriors, who make AVEN look like a right wing talk show. The minute the SJWs start dominating the ace movement is when I'll be gone...)

More later...

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby jmb » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:19 pm

flergalwit wrote:This is precisely backwards. AVEN is an order of magnitude MORE accepting of unconventional and non-PC views than any LGBT safe space I've been involved with. Some LGBT leaning aces do not regard AVEN as safe for precisely this reason.


Actually, it's not that I was "backwards" rather, I was unclear. AVEN members tend to attack other members on different issues/questions raised, which shuts down further discussion. STARTING a discussion is encouraged, but don't say anything that 1/2 the population disagrees with or you risk punishment from the admods. Rather than fostering an environment of helpful discussion, AVEN fosters a place for arguments and "whoever shouts loudest; wins." Basically, I was saying that AVEN isn't a safe space.

flergalwit wrote: I am genuinely shocked that you write obvious garbage such as this, and I'm very surprised at Nancy for thanking your post. It's obvious you know virtually nothing about AVEN if you think our attitude is "We're first and we're the best and the rest of you STFU."


This attitude right here? Is a good example of why I consider AVEN unsafe. You could have disagreed with me intelligently. You could have disagreed with specifically what I said - and offered examples of why you disagree with it. Instead, you not only attack me "That I obviously know nothing about AVEN and that I write garbage," but you also attack Nancy for thanking my post. And neither of the attacks show why you disagree with my statement.

flergalwit wrote: For my part I've long wanted decent alternatives to AVEN - discussion forums that is. The problem is, with the possible exception of apositive (which suffers from low traffic), there ain't any. (There's Avalanche, which can be fun, but I don't regard it as a serious place for discussion. Apart from that it's Tumblr, which is dominated by social justice warriors, who make AVEN look like a right wing talk show. The minute the SJWs start dominating the ace movement is when I'll be gone...)


The SJW comment is really off-putting for a number of reasons. From these comments, you strike me as someone who only knows of Social Justice from the standpoint of the internet (and in particular Tumblr/Plurk). That's really depressing to me. I am a Social Justice Warrior - in the traditional sense. I've been involved in getting laws changed, volunteering at the abused women's shelters, worked with the homeless networks, etc. And I'm PROUD to be an "SJW". And you know what? Without "SJWs", the Ace Community has NO HOPE of getting the asexual orientation recognized legally as a protected class. Because it takes people who are willing to fight for that cause to do the work and that is what being a Social Justice Warrior is all about.

Finally, a vast majority of the AVENites I've had contact with, do have and promote the attitude that AVEN is "The Best Site" and it should be the "One and only" Asexual site out there. I have seen far too many people who go to other sites and return to AVEN get ridiculed and attacked for it to think otherwise.

Setting all of that aside, you claim you desire to find a place that has serious discussion. But the way this reply is written says to me that you seek something entirely different.
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby flergalwit » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:54 am

jmb wrote:
flergalwit wrote: I am genuinely shocked that you write obvious garbage such as this, and I'm very surprised at Nancy for thanking your post. It's obvious you know virtually nothing about AVEN if you think our attitude is "We're first and we're the best and the rest of you STFU.


This attitude right here? Is a good example of why I consider AVEN unsafe. You could have disagreed with me intelligently. You could have disagreed with specifically what I said - and offered examples of why you disagree with it. Instead, you not only attack me "That I obviously know nothing about AVEN and that I write garbage," but you also attack Nancy for thanking my post. And neither of the attacks show why you disagree with my statement.

Ah well. If you were expecting safe to mean that no-one ever calls what other people write "garbage" (without immediately giving evidence) then yes indeed, AVEN isn't safe in that sense. Neither is any other forum I've ever been on for that matter. Further if you think being "very surprised at" is an attack then it seems your notion of what an attack is radically differs from mine as well. (For the record I greatly respect Nancy's work on apositive and previously on AVEN, despite some strong disagreements.)

AVEN does not say "We're first and we're the best and the rest of you STFU." If you think it does, please quote a statement from anyone on AVEN's leadership saying such a thing. You won't be able to, because it's not there. On AVEN we *want* more asexual communities out there, including those that do things differently to AVEN. We even have a community index to link other sites, including apositive. (Regrettably not Avalanche - a policy I disagree with.)

flergalwit wrote:The SJW comment is really off-putting for a number of reasons. From these comments, you strike me as someone who only knows of Social Justice from the standpoint of the internet (and in particular Tumblr/Plurk). That's really depressing to me. I am a Social Justice Warrior - in the traditional sense. I've been involved in getting laws changed, volunteering at the abused women's shelters, worked with the homeless networks, etc.

Good for you! This is of course not what I mean by the term Social Justice Warrior, but you're welcome to use terminology differently to me.

jmb wrote:Without "SJWs", the Ace Community has NO HOPE of getting the asexual orientation recognized legally as a protected class. Because it takes people who are willing to fight for that cause to do the work and that is what being a Social Justice Warrior is all about.

Whether asexuality should be recognised as a legally protected class is actually a highly divisive issue in the asexual community. I'm not necessarily against it, but the evidence that such a protection is actually needed is rather thin, I think.

jmb wrote:Finally, a vast majority of the AVENites I've had contact with, do have and promote the attitude that AVEN is "The Best Site" and it should be the "One and only" Asexual site out there. I have seen far too many people who go to other sites and return to AVEN get ridiculed and attacked for it to think otherwise.

Cool. Then you'll have no difficult finding actual quotes from AVENites that 'AVEN is "The Best Site" and it should be the "One and only" Asexual site out there'. And you'll have no difficulty giving links to discussions where people were "ridiculed and attacked" for going to other asexual sites. Right?

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby jmb » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:12 am

flergalwit wrote: ...


For me, this part of the discussion has crossed the line of "not worth the effort." You've exhibited here and in other threads an attitude, which to me, suggests that you're not as interested in serious discussion as you claim.

You ask for proofs but provide none of your own. Interesting. Well, I'll reply to your request: I thought we were talking about the specific event that happened in March/April/May (yes, some threads went on into May) on AVEN. So, the information/proof you request has already been provided elsewhere in this thread. I'm not going to rehash what others have already referenced. I applied those attitudes into the broader AVEN community, partly because with AVEN's popular election, the leadership reflects the community, but the community also reflects the leadership. The other reason is because those are actual attitudes I've seen/experienced on that site myself.

AVEN is a toxic environment for me and I am not going to delve back into the toxicity for something that others have already referenced.
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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby PiF » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:46 pm

Aven is nothing more than a forum with an asexual title that has more to do with socialising than promoting asexuality

As for social justice warrior..it's rather like those who say they fight for the oppressed whilst they live at home in a middle class neighborhood with mummy the lawyer and daddy the bank manager. Even if they are genuine they are like so many of todays objectors, very little experieince behind it. That's not to say they do not believe they are with good intent but I have found over the years words from a keyboard often have very little real world end result in changing things

as for ...For my part I've long wanted decent alternatives to AVEN - discussion forums that is. The problem is, with the possible exception of apositive (which suffers from low traffic), there ain't any.

I would say avens false asexual representitive of asexuals and ergo it's content of false asexuals, is hardly a positive benchmark for asexuality and apositives lower traffic would be I suggest be a truer representation of the amount of genuine asexuals.

Also aven, due to it's main age group being largely ...mum mum he's picking on me ....then good discussions starts but it's not long before they confuse everyone has a right to a different opinion with....I don't like your opinion so I'm calling you out and reporting you. As a discussion forum based on a snowflake mantra it is incredibly hard to set aven as a shining example of how to do it.

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Re: Avens backroom caught red handed

Postby KAGU143 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:08 pm

I never got the impression that AVEN had any sort of official policy stating that they are the only worthwhile asexual forum, but I can see why someone could get that idea.

I think the biggest reason that AVEN *seems* to be portraying itself as elevated above the other sites is due to DJ. He refuses to even set foot (figuratively) into any of the other asexual sites. Why is that?
Now, in the case of Apositive, I know that he was actually invited to join shortly after the site began. For whatever reason, he chose not to. (This is another reason why I think that DJ is of the "What's in it for ME, not those other people ..." mentality.)
Here's the way I see it: No matter how many asexual websites there are, we are still a very small minority. We need to stick together and support each other even if we aren't all the exact same "flavor" of asexual. For this reason, I will usually join any other asexual group that I find out about. I don't always participate, but I like to add my name as a member just to show my support.

I don't think DJ's behavior is necessarily true of the general membership at AVEN, and I know that the dreaded "back room" is very supportive of the other groups.
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