Idk where I am welcome...

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Melanthios

Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:33 pm

I always knock emotional lamps over and break them because I don't know where they are and then I have to leave. So let's enjoy this for the few minutes it will last. :/

I ID as an ace now, though because I like orgasms I'm not really sure what is going on. But I don't really have a sex drive or understand feeling attracted to other people so I'm not welcome in sexual spaces either. But I fall in love with my friends a lot and when I'm in a relationship I get very, very committed to that person and go into every relationship with the idea that this is supposed to and should end in building a life together and living together and helping each other. I am also kinky. Really, really, really, really kinky. The kind of kinky I can't actually find on kink-friendly sites most of the time. So... there's that.

I have inadvertently offended pretty much every single ace I have tried to talk to because I generally want to understand the idea more, and can't figure out how to phrase that without them thinking I'm being like everyone else and invalidating them--which I never, never, never, never want to do. I am just too curious I guess, and 'just because' always rubs me wrong as an answer. :( I also don't want to enable not seeking help for self-loathing or PTSD or shame something, which 99% of (all) people I've met have. I don't really know what to do, or how to find answers to my questions if I'm not allowed to ask them the only way I know how.

So yeah, not sure what to do. Kind of sure I'm not welcome anywhere. Pretty scared about even talking about this because whenever I try I get shut down or end up accidentally knocking over the proverbial lamp onto the floor before I know how I've done it. Just lost a friend that way a few minutes ago.

So yeah hi. Other than all that identity stuff I write fantastical erotic fairy tale type novels, I like the ocean a lot and I love biological and ecological type science. Also I like to sing, and I like octopus and seahorses and coral.

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KAGU143
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Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby KAGU143 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:53 pm

Hi, Melanthios, and welcome to Apositive.

I think that most of the emotional lamps around here have already been knocked over more than once. The ones that are left are almost bulletproof, so don't be afraid to talk.

Besides, sea life is cool, and so is biological science. Those would be interesting topics for the fun and general area.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

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Dargon
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Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Dargon » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:54 pm

Good news! You happen to have stumbled upon one of the few asexuality sites where actually talking about sex in order to understand (a)sexuality isn't frowned upon, and is actually encouraged!

As to your sexuality, a few things I've noted over the years. Many asexuals do not find that romantic and sexual desire and attraction necessarily line up. Many asexuals experience romantic attractions while still remaining asexual.

As for the enjoyment of orgasms, there are also many asexuals who also enjoy orgasms. To use some vocabulary I have seen frequently, asexuality is defined based on sexual attraction, which is often defined as the desire for sexual activity directed towards another person. Sexual desire is often defined as the desire for genital gratification, and it is not necessarily directed at anything. Many would argue that an asexual can experience sexual desire without sexual attraction.

Taking it a step further, there are many asexuals who are in sexual relationships, and also enjoy the sex. Some may argue that this isn't asexuality, but if we're going by the attraction-based definition, it is quite possible to enjoy sex while not experiencing sexual attraction.

As for the kink, there we get into a bit of grey area. I've seen (and even participated in) discussions as to how things like BDSM can fit into asexuality, and they've been rather interesting.

Finally, just taking a note from my own book, perhaps you may be in a case where no label really fits. I personally do not ascribe a label to my sexuality, as it really doesn't fit nicely in the blanket labels. Don't go rushing into a label; sexuality is far more complicated than the nice little labels make it out to be, and it is often a shame to try to get it to conform into one of those nice little boxes.

Melanthios

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:19 pm

Dargon: Firstly, thank you so much.

I suppose I always seek out a group for validation--I've never been a person who shuns labels--rather I really really want labels for myself, because they're really useful adjectives that save time when you're explaining what you are in a nutshell. I guess that's not a good habit, though... I mean, I'm learning that people put nasty things like stereotypes and connotations on labels (I know, I know, I'm a little old to just be learning this), but I can't help but seek out the most succinct words I can to describe something--including myself.

And, like every human, I want to find a group where I feel like I belong (I've never been welcome in my family and didn't really acquire a group at school or work). I keep trying out groups that feel like they might work, but they don't. I'm really relieved that Apos has been welcoming so far.

My question, the one that always is a problem... well, I understand not having a 'sex drive/libido'. I understand not wanting to have sex as in 'another person helping you reach orgasm'. I understand not being sexually attracted to people. What I haven't really gotten a good understanding of is the masturbation/orgasm question, specifically the concept of disliking the sensation of either or both. I just... I admit I don't understand that--but I want to, in that 'you are not like me so tell me about this thing that is not like me because I want to share our differences and understand you better because that is what life is about', just how I am interested in understanding other differences in people like culture or religion.

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Dargon
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Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Dargon » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:43 pm

Labels are kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand, they are useful for describing one's self, and for finding social groups one can easily plug into. However, they are often restrictive, may cause people to think incorrect things about you, and may pressure you into conforming into things you don't quite agree with. In the end, it is up to the individual to decide when labels are appropriate or not. For instance, I use some labels to describe some of my interests and moral positions, but I do not use a label to describe my own sexuality, as I have not found any that remotely fit.

As for the masturbation question, I am not sure I can answer that one, though I can try through a parallel. I personally enjoy both masturbation and orgasm, so I cannot really relate to those that do not.

However, I rather dislike most physical touch. I will admit this is something I wish to overcome (and have made phenomenal strides over the past several years, though most still find it quite an extreme aversion), however, since touch (especially things like massage) is something most people enjoy and I don't, I can perhaps relate on some level to those who do not enjoy masturbation/orgasm. The actual sensation is difficult to describe. Welcome touch and unwelcome touch actually do feel physically different (and for the record, touch that used to be unwelcome and now is welcome has changed in how it feels). I am not sure how to describe the difference in feeling, but the unwelcome touch feeling is very, very uncomfortable. Not painful, more icky than anything. When it is there, it is a feeling I wish to be rid of as quickly as possible.

I do not know if that is helpful, as it does not directly address the question and is poorly described, but I hope it gets you somewhere.

As for the sharing, there are far too few who take your approach. People seem to want too desperately to prove they are right. Too few want to talk simply to understand the other perspective.

Melanthios

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:43 pm

That makes sense. I have some nerve weirdness with my migraine disorder, and I have known a person with very intense fibromyalgia--so I am well-familiar with the concept of 'sometimes touch is okay and sometimes it is sticky/tingly/needly/painful/slimy'. It just... hm. The idea of one's own touch being uncomfortable seems hard to wrap my brain around, even though I'm familiar with concepts like nerve damage and nerve disorders. I am trying, though. Perhaps someone will chime in with an analogy that will add on to the idea I am starting to understand.

Thank you for helping me understand better; and for being kind, too.

ASIC

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby ASIC » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:53 am

Melanthios wrote:I suppose I always seek out a group for validation--I've never been a person who shuns labels--rather I really really want labels for myself, because they're really useful adjectives that save time when you're explaining what you are in a nutshell.


Saving time does rather depend on people's being familiar with the label, though... it's not much use explaining to a group that "I'm a veb-ansic miloxist (and you shouldn't confuse me with a petoxist)" if they've never encountered that concept, let alone vocabulary...


What I haven't really gotten a good understanding of is the masturbation/orgasm question, specifically the concept of disliking the sensation of either or both.


Imagine...

Do you enjoy blowing your nose? Do you enjoy the need to blow your nose? Does the concept of a compulsive desire to expel mucus through your nasal passages with increased frequency seem a pleasant and appealing one to you?

Does that perspective make sense?

Melanthios

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:45 am

Do you enjoy blowing your nose? Do you enjoy the need to blow your nose? Does the concept of a compulsive desire to expel mucus through your nasal passages with increased frequency seem a pleasant and appealing one to you?


Well... actually, yes. Blowing my nose is a healthy function that expels diseases that would have otherwise infected my body. So yes I like the sensation, because not only does it help me breathe better but I know it's also keeping me healthy and--placebo effect--therefore I feel better afterward. But obvs one doesn't blow one's nose if there is no drive to--but if you never had to blow your nose, and you were actively disgusted with blowing your nose--that is two different things. It's the latter I don't 'get'--well, not without there being an issue of shame or body-hate going on (and again, I keep observing the language that indicates that--especially with the active dislike of blowing noses, rather than just being like 'meh'.)

So... perhaps that isn't the best analogy to me personally? Or does my feedback help explain what I'm having trouble with? Like I said, the main reason I am so hesitant to take 'I don't like it because I don't' at face value is because I don't want to enable body-hatred or shame of any kind

ASIC

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby ASIC » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:04 am

Well, it's an analogy I picked - in lieu of the more obvious forms of bodily relief - to express the concept of a process that most people find obligatory to relieve discomfort from time to time, but not in itself pleasurable or nice to think about... but if you do actively enjoy it, then obviously it isn't a very helpful one!

Personally I don't have any trouble with body-hatred, but I wasn't brought up with the idea that all bodies are beautiful and natural things to be celebrated in their healthy glory - I regard them more as things that need to be kept clean and tidy and functioning despite their tendencies to undermine all these necessities if left to themselves, in other words a lot of work to look after...

Melanthios

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:13 am

Hm, well you'd be the first ace-type person I have talked to about this issue that shared that view that I was brought up with about bodies being beautiful and natural and fine. Though I must confess, the more I found out about how they work the more I marvelled and how well they take care of themselves already.

But thank you! I think I am really gaining more of an understanding now. So... it really is all about the drive for orgasm, not really the way the concept of orgasm is viewed? Is it safe to say that if someone admits that orgasm is 'icky' (or similar) that this is not really part of asexuality, but an indication of some separate thing? Because it seems to me very similar to how some people ID as men who like men with cocks, and claim that they think vulvas are 'gross'. I would say that thinking vulvas are gross is not part of any kind of sexual alignment and speaks of a separate phobia that I would say is a problem, since it involves body-hate (because aggressive disgust is not the same as not preferring something). Does that make sense?

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Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Dargon » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:53 pm

The blowing the nose analogy is interesting. With that (and other bodily functions not mentioned) I tend to not enjoy the process, but I do enjoy the sense of relief afterwards. Would it be the case that those who don't enjoy masturbation do not enjoy the process, but enjoy the relief afterward, or do they not like that part either?

Melanthios, I would say sexual desire is all about drive for orgasm, but (a)sexuality is about sexual attraction, and thus drive for orgasm has nothing to do with it. With regards to orgasm being gross, I am not sure it is indicative of some sort of dysfunction (perhaps a normal bell-curve distrobution may account for it), but it is not necessarily related to asexuality.

The body hate one is an interesting thought. I am not sure it constitutes a phobia or not. Would it also be body-hate to find anuses gross? How about spleens? This could be argued either way. What I think we likely would agree on is that is does become problematic is when this disgust with it becomes something the person thinks is right or should be universally accepted (as it the case with anti-sexuals). A that point, said disgust begins to impose and infringe on other peoples' wellbeing.

ASIC

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby ASIC » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:34 pm

Melanthios wrote:you'd be the first ace-type person I have talked to about this issue that shared that view that I was brought up with about bodies being beautiful and natural and fine


Sorry, bad wording - what I meant by "I don't have a problem with body-hatred" (which was indeed misleading) was "I don't myself worry about whether I am encouraging body-hatred in other people" since I wasn't brought up in the doctrine that bodies should be celebrated just how they are, but rather in the belief that it is our duty to keep them properly under control - my body is a tool, not a temple...

But thank you! I think I am really gaining more of an understanding now. So... it really is all about the drive for orgasm, not really the way the concept of orgasm is viewed? Is it safe to say that if someone admits that orgasm is 'icky' (or similar) that this is not really part of asexuality, but an indication of some separate thing?


I'm afraid I'm not really the person to talk to on this, because, like Dargon, I don't 'identify' as asexual in this sense. I'm simply projecting what I've heard other people say into an analogy that makes sense to me, in the hopes that it might make some sense to you also...

For my part, I understand being sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex (being attracted to members of one's own sex is a wall of complete incomprehension), I just don't do it at random - I need the emotional connection. And, at the risk of providing far Too Much Information, mechanical stimulation doesn't work for me in isolation either: orgasm requires some kind of fiction/fantasy to accompany it, otherwise you get so far and no further. The fiction can work (occasionally) without the action, but not vice versa.

Because it seems to me very similar to how some people ID as men who like men with cocks, and claim that they think vulvas are 'gross'. I would say that thinking vulvas are gross is not part of any kind of sexual alignment and speaks of a separate phobia that I would say is a problem, since it involves body-hate (because aggressive disgust is not the same as not preferring something). Does that make sense?


Well, I'd just say they self-evidently are 'gross', and not worry about it. The insides of noses - the insides of armpits - anuses and spleens, as Dargon points out, are all pretty unattractive. The function of the vulva is not an aesthetic one and the appeal is not through visibility (unless you're a mandrill?)

Melanthios

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:47 pm

Ah, okay, so I am still the only person who thinks bodies are beautiful, fullstop, in this thread...

Being trans as well, I have a very odd view of what constitutes a gender or a sex, and have basically given up on ascribing any physical attributes to any of it. A gender is not a body. I don't know what a gender is other than a semi-fluid but nonetheless not-changeable-by-sheer-will part of a person (i.e. you do not 'decide' what your gender is, though your gender may change throughout your life).

I suppose sexuality would be the same--though, again, despite my lack of sexual attraction to any part of a body, I am nonetheless awestruck by the beauty of the entire human form and system on an artistic and scientific level. Humans are as beautiful as a tree, the ocean, an octopus, a mountain, a slime mould, a fungus, a rat--but I do not find them titillating for that beauty.

Like you I don't understand touch without fantasy--complex fantasy at that, one that doesn't involve other humans (for me, at least, since we're sharing)--but I still hesitate when people declare they think genitalia in some way defective or ugly or gross. I suppose I may be overreacting/oversensitive due to my own psychological background surrounded by misogyny/shaming others' bodies/etc and the intense and sick relationship society has with the human body--especially the genitalia.

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Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby KAGU143 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:36 am

I certainly don't see anything wrong with human bodies, or with any other kinds of bodies for that matter. My only real problem with genitalia is that their structure is very detailed and they can be annnoying for me, as an artist, to try to portray correctly.

I am more inclined to find them amusing rather than disgusting. After all, streaking was popular back when I was growing up, and to me there are very few things funnier than a naked man trying to outrun the authorities. It makes me laugh just to remember it.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Melanthios

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:39 pm

Hm. I love the complexity of genitalia--my only problem is that anatomy books and reference is so censored and inaccurate when it isn't that drawing them has become hard merely because all the references I use omit them as though they don't exist, so I don't know how to place them! This is one of the reasons I started using pornography I found on the net as mere reference (it is good for little else, imho--not creative enough to be beautiful. Most porn seems to just be naked people/people in lingerie, which is... naked people. Or people in lingerie. I don't... understand...? Useful for reference, though!)

I have never seen a naked man running in person, but I have seen lots of naked people doing other things before and to me it's just naked. I have no particular feelings either way on the subject, other than a rather insatiable curiosity and desire to see more types of naked people so I have more to draw from when I am drawing, and more understanding of what idiosyncratic traits show up across ethnicities so I can better portray them in my illustration (I do not like how most of my characters are white and English, I want more diversity). I especially like naked people who look nothing like me, because then I gain new knowledge about the range of amazing diversity present in our species.

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Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby michaels » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:08 am

Melanthios wrote:I have never seen a naked man running in person, but I have seen lots of naked people doing other things before and to me it's just naked.


Back in the mid-1990s I hung out with naturalists. There was a social hub in a nearby small city, which about 20 people rotated through. The hub was a six-bedroom house that had no A/C and got disgustingly hot during the summer, so when we were indoors most of us were nude. It taught me to be pretty relaxed about my own body and not to pay too much attention to other people's bodies. The fact is that most people don't look that good naked, and if you saturate yourself with the sight of nudity it becomes commonplace.

Melanthios

Re: Idk where I am welcome...

Postby Melanthios » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:24 pm

michaels wrote:
Melanthios wrote:I have never seen a naked man running in person, but I have seen lots of naked people doing other things before and to me it's just naked.


Back in the mid-1990s I hung out with naturalists. There was a social hub in a nearby small city, which about 20 people rotated through. The hub was a six-bedroom house that had no A/C and got disgustingly hot during the summer, so when we were indoors most of us were nude. It taught me to be pretty relaxed about my own body and not to pay too much attention to other people's bodies. The fact is that most people don't look that good naked, and if you saturate yourself with the sight of nudity it becomes commonplace.


Right, exactly! Nudity was fairly common in my house when I was a little kid, though it stopped when my dad got more unstable and I hit puberty (they happened to coincide, one didn't really cause the other obvs). I've had bad experiences with 'nudists' in the past (put in quotes bc I have done research and I'm sure they weren't, now, they were just using their nudity to sexually assault us since they didn't care whether we were uncomfortable with their nudity or not), but I'm glad to say that hasn't turned me off the idea of nudity being okay.