about to get banned from AVEN

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LovelyButBeastly
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about to get banned from AVEN

Postby LovelyButBeastly » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:33 am

I'm about to get banned from AVEN for expressing some inconvenient truths. Let's see how they are received here.

AVEN's definition of asexuality as lack of sexual attraction is purely political and has zero basis in fact. Someone else could assert that asexuality is having three legs and that assertion would be on an equally strong (or weak) footing as AVEN's. The reason AVEN defines asexuality as lack of sexual attraction is not because they have any evidence for it, but because it enables AVEN to claim that asexuality is a type of sexual orientation and thereby ally itself with the LGBT movement in order to increase the political clout of AVEN's administrators.

Let's look at the facts, however. Everyone, including AVEN, admits that gender identity is not the same thing as sexual orientation. A cisgendered person can be straight, gay or bi; no mystery there. Similarly, a transgender person can be straight, gay or bi; same diff. The alliance between the T and the LGB in LGBT is purely political rather than factual because, on the face of it, transfolk have nothing to gain from confusing people about there being a difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. Now, move on to asexuality. As far as anyone can tell, asexuality is not a sexual orientation but the ABSENCE of sexuality itself. That's again on a totally different axis from sexual orientation and gender identity both. A gay man or bisexual woman can be sexual or asexual the same way they can be cisgender or transgender. Similarly, a cisgender or transgender person can be sexual or asexual. There is just no connection.

What three-headed hydras such as LGBTQ do is sow confusion for the sake of glorifying a small number of movement organizers. Uninformed people are misled into thinking that gender identity equals sexual orientation equals sexuality, which can cause an unholy mess that's difficult to straighten out. When it comes to the confusion between gender identity and sexual orientation, what is being done by the politicos is well-intentioned and unfortunate. When it comes to confusing sexuality with sexual orientation, what is being done is deliberate and pernicious, because newcomers to AVEN are being actively TOLD that asexuality is a sexual orientation--which it totally is not. Or, at least, there is no hard evidence that it is, just a willingness to go along with what is politically convenient. And the tragedy is that nearly every confused newcomer who comes to AVEN is looking, not for political joinerism, but FACTUAL INFORMATION--which it doesn't get, but which AVEN pretends it is offering. AVEN totally does a disservice to asexuals and is one of our worst enemies.

I happen to think that AVEN has sold its soul to the devil in the name of acquiring power. I see it as little different from Ernst Stavro Blofeld. And, although I didn't express myself in those terms on AVEN, I'm pretty much sure I'm gonna get excommunicated from AVEN for questioning its dogma publicly.

Isaac
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby Isaac » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:46 am

I think you should read about the Storms model, which obtains that asexuality is a sexual oriantation 20 years before AVEN.

PiF
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby PiF » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:09 am

avalanche asexual forum is an option too but to be honest I think most real asexuals would agree with you to a point

it has sold out and whilst claiming it's done for the cause of visibility ..what is now visible has very little to do with asexuality

no one will change it, the best we can do is to continue to point out where they are doing more damage than good and hope real asexuals understand the difference

LovelyButBeastly
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby LovelyButBeastly » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:05 am

I'll google "storms model" to see whether there's any science behind it.

What is avalanche asexual forum?

I'm mostly concerned about the fact that AVEN does have by far the highest profile of all asexual communities, so newcomers to the topic will keep being misinformed until we have an insanely confused and perhaps unsolvable situation on our hands. Already it's unlikely that asexuality will ever be scientifically understood simply because it has been politicized to such a huge extent (as politics always obviates fact).

Anyway, thanks for listening to me shriek yesterday. I haven't been banned yet. Maybe they just quietly deleted my post. Although I did get two "likes" on it over the past half-day or so, and one member sent me a PM saying s/he shares my views.

LBB

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KAGU143
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby KAGU143 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:36 am

Hi LBB, and welcome to Apositive!

I agree with much of what you said but I'm also in the position of knowing why AVEN presents asexuality in the way that it does. I hope to have time to expound on this later, but I am about to be hijacked and driven to Seattle whether I like it or not! (aaaarrrrgh!)

On a positive note :) don't worry about being banned here. You would have to do a LOT more than have an unpopular opinion. 'Worst-case scenario is that I might edit one of your posts if it totally crosses the line, but then I would PM you to let you know why I did it.

Refrain from personal insults and you'll be fine! Discussion is welcome here, even if it gets a bit heated.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

LovelyButBeastly
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby LovelyButBeastly » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:37 am

I look forward to hearing what you have to say about AVEN once you come back from your trip. Meanwhile, enjoy your sojourn in the City of Free Love. :)

LBB

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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby RosettaAce » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:32 am

Hi, I'm new here, but I've been on AVEN for the last two and half years or so.

While I like AVEN and have found some friends there, I have to agree that it’s confusing. When I first started lurking there - about two years before I became active - I noticed that there were debates going on about whether or not asexuality was an orientation, or an absence of sexuality. That argument seems to have disappeared in favor of connecting us to the LGBTQ community. I personally have never felt that I belong to the LGBTQ community in any way other than as an ally. I'm confused by the idea that asexuality is an orientation, I much prefer the idea that it is a lack of sexuality. I read a blog recently saying that they couldn't take asexuality seriously because there is so much variation in the community. Basically their argument was: if they can't define themselves, how can they be a true orientation?
You are absolutely right, an asexual can be gay, bi, straight, trans or any other variation. I wonder, if we stop the confusing political language, could the conflict mentioned in that blog be resolved? I mean if we can agree that asexuality is an absence of sexuality then the fact that there are those who are gay, bi trans, etc. wouldn't be "muddying the waters" so to speak, they would simply be what they are: A gay, trans, bi, etc. person who is asexual.

You make a great argument!

LovelyButBeastly
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby LovelyButBeastly » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:58 am

Rosetta, you express precisely my concern. People too often define themselves as what they are IN ADDITION to asexual rather than primarily as asexual. That hardly fosters a community of any sort. Frankly, I feel like we're being exploited to promote the agendas of other minorities. Those other minorities are far larger than ours, and we should never have gotten into bed with them, because they're rolling over in their sleep and squashing us.

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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby RosettaAce » Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:43 am

I have to agree, Lovely, we are at risk for getting squashed. I think it's odd that it is such a big deal for us to join the LGBTQ community. I remember listening to the A Life podcast recently (years behind I know, but I'm enjoying it) and one of them said - Becca I think - that a lot of the time the LGBTQ community is concerned with gay rights mostly. I understand that, but what got me was when she said that a lot of them feel that when they get everything they are fighting for then they will try to help the Trans community, and other sexual minorities.

I don't like to do the whole "us vs. them" thing, but why would we want to be included in a group that will only help us with our goals if they have time later?

Our goals are different from their goals anyway, we have the problem of visibility and education, the lack of which leads to asexuals feeling isolated because no one knows what to make of them.

On top of all of this there is apparently a portion of the LGBTQ community who thinks asexuality is a threat to their movement. The last thing a confused asexual kid needs is to be made to feel like they must be part of a community where there seems to be some hostility toward them - how will that help anyone?

I realize that we are a small community and there is overlap with the LGBTQ community, but wouldn't it be better for both communities to ally with each other, be supportive, but be separate? I mean there's no rule that says one can't be part of two different communities. Back during the women's rights movement lesbians were both feminists and lesbians, but no one told the feminists that they had to join the gay community, or vice versa.

Sorry for the rant, and I hope it made sense and didn't offend anyone!

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Tanwen
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby Tanwen » Mon May 20, 2013 1:42 pm

It isn't quite so much what is said as the way it is.
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

holosexual
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby holosexual » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:38 am

I think what's needed is a word to acknowledge the choice-independent, ineluctable nature of asexuality which avoids fusing it to orientation: "orientation" was LGBT's way to achieve that same legitimacy for themselves by avoiding the functionalist trap laid by determinists who class so-called alternate states or conditions as being fundamentally illegitimate and invented.

In asexuality and those asexual's being targeted by the same foes I view the asexual community to share a vital political identity with the LGBTQA community.

I honestly see no shortcomings, offhand, in the established and accepted definition and scope of the phrase "gender identity" for the narrow purpose of distinguishing pronounced sexual non-proclivity from orientation (other than its likely misinterpretation by those incapable of other than subjugating the individual to sex, gender, and identity, and to labels—that however is less a political problem than an ideological one; there is every reason in the world why asexuality politically deserves a place in the LGBTQA community as its broader antecedent term, "queer" (of which I'm however less than fond), alludes). I think it behooves all involved to acknowledge the narrowness of orientation relative to sex (lest gays, too, forfeit themselves their hetero acceptance), and coordinate our efforts politically without needing to feel the political community _must_ carry with it mutual self-identification thereabouts.

The real divisions between LGBXYZ(alphabet fatigue, sorry) and asexuals are as obvious as with the mainstream, and those really are thorny and lack easy answers, but the worst thing to do, IMO, is to defend those asexual's uniqueness by hamstringing their ability to maintain the space of dignity among others in which to inhabit those uniquenesses, be they asexual, corporate, or personal. Muddying political shrewdness by equating it with erasure of identity is how political parties intended to champion individual uniqueness instead quell and smother it through interlocking animosities and recrimination omitting individuals' irreducible primacy. It saddens me to see what I view to be some of those asexual who are hamstringing both their identity's acceptance and its associated community by insisting upon politics being made personal, which it decidedly cannot and _must_ not become; likewise, the political leadership is, as those asexual critics rightly point out, also throwing the baby of individualism out with the bathwater of anti-anti-discrimination. The best next step, it seems to me, is to collaborate in championing the _narrowness_ of orientation and the _broadness_ of sexuality in a context of libertine individual prerogative to self-determination at the explicit _expense_ of labels, no matter how accurate they may prove in so far as they go, and no matter how politically, civically, and socially expedient. That's also something we share in common with not just LGX but also the mainstream and the web of life inexorably calling us to own our freedom to admit our knowledge's limitations and embrace our capability to enjoy life in all its loving forms for its unknowably wondrous living experience.

The divisions between sex and orientation are manifold, indeed. For starters, asexuality is a descriptor, not an attribute per se, even if it is a condition ("condition" in a general useage, not as a clinical problem-state) arising from ineluctable factors, none of which themselves may be solely or always capable of influencing toward a determined outcome of asexuality (a holistic concept nosing toward unknowability). Even accepting oneself as asexual needn't entail the same kind of determinist identity most will assign to any individual to whom they can attach a label. I bristle every time I hear "a gay" or "a lesbian" or even "a homeless person" because all reflect the same dehumanizing mistake of filtering the individual through the label's lens: they are "gay" or "lesbian" or "a person homeless", or "an individual [who (and not "which that"!)] is] asexual".

Bringing the terms of discourse to heel and subduing ideology to its rightfully subservient place relative to the individual, those asexual are poised to exercise their own autonomy including that to keep to themselves, and suddenly asexuality is not so radical after all, but a declaration of self-independence, self-reliance, indeed, upon which America was supposedly founded and typically its loudest proponents most flagrantly betray in their mistreatment of others whose passive deployment thereof threatens a social order predicated upon mutual interdependency and crippling projection for an iron grip upon imagination, social status and economy, and freedom.

This gets to another caliber of distinction between sexuality and orientation: sexuality can be disoriented from _sex_. One can find another attractive without sex acts' being their idealized or even imagined or desired culmination. What if I'd rather be made love to than had sex with, rather make my partner(/s) feel love(/d) than f***ed?

I consider myself homosexual and am OK with mingling sex, gender, sexuality, and sensuality, but confuse none for the others nor insist any carry or entail any except itself, so I feel myself to have an affinity for the asexual community if only in its emphasis on a quality rarely exposed and appreciated in isolation, even if in a somewhat back-handed sense of its absence.

Disjointed

Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby Disjointed » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:10 pm

holosexual wrote:I think what's needed is a word to acknowledge the choice-independent, ineluctable nature of asexuality which avoids fusing it to orientation: "orientation" was LGBT's way to achieve that same legitimacy for themselves by avoiding the functionalist trap laid by determinists who class so-called alternate states or conditions as being fundamentally illegitimate and invented.

In asexuality and those asexual's being targeted by the same foes I view the asexual community to share a vital political identity with the LGBTQA community.


By associating ourselves with the lgbt many asexuals have the "choice independent" of straight asexuality removed

holosexual wrote:I honestly see no shortcomings, offhand,.


erm..trying to convince people it is genuine and they turn around and say...it's not real..your all gay and are to afraid to be honest......might be a short coming don't you think?

holosexual wrote:there is every reason in the world why asexuality politically deserves a place in the LGBTQA community as its broader antecedent term, "queer" (of which I'm however less than fond), alludes). ,.


Is the mantra of someone who normally tends to be gay and pro lgbtxyz anyway. many polls have been created and discussed on this very subject and a very large part of those asexuals polled want nothing to do with the lgbt

holosexual wrote:The real divisions between LGBXYZ(alphabet fatigue, sorry) and asexuals are as obvious as with the mainstream, and those really are thorny and lack easy answers, but the worst thing to do, IMO, is to defend those asexual's uniqueness by hamstringing their ability to maintain the space of dignity among others in which to inhabit those uniquenesses, be they asexual, corporate, or personal..


association for political motives rarely spreads correct definitions I would say. Political convenience is always wrought with torrid end results

holosexual wrote:Bringing the terms of discourse to heel and subduing ideology to its rightfully subservient place relative to the individual, those asexual are poised to exercise their own autonomy including that to keep to themselves, and suddenly asexuality is not so radical after all, but a declaration of self-independence, self-reliance, indeed, upon which America was supposedly founded and typically its loudest proponents most flagrantly betray in their mistreatment of others whose passive deployment thereof threatens a social order predicated upon mutual interdependency and crippling projection for an iron grip upon imagination, social status and economy, and freedom.,.


Which is a very long winded way of saying you are confusing celibacy with asexuality..there is no declaration within asexuality..you just are and exercising autonomy is a choice

holosexual wrote:I consider myself homosexual and am OK with mingling sex, gender, sexuality, and sensuality, but confuse none for the others nor insist any carry or entail any except itself, so I feel myself to have an affinity for the asexual community if only in its emphasis on a quality rarely exposed and appreciated in isolation, even if in a somewhat back-handed sense of its absence.


It would seem from this simpleton of words is that you are looking for a utopic life and will grab any straws that fir the purpose at that time because you feel you can have the choice of cake and eat it. That is the modern curse of confusing what is with what you want and leads very little for the honesty of asexuality as some cherry pick components whilst claiming they are asexual

In your own life sure you are entitled to choose what you wish but in the fight to promote asexuality correctly and as a genuine thing, it does nothing other than set it back decades I feel

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Blinky
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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby Blinky » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:50 pm

I don't really understand how a person can be asexual AND straight or gay or whatever. I agree that there can be romantic tendencies but it doesn't make sense to say that "I'm both attracted to and not attracted to men/women/whatever"

I can see how asexuality can be a lack of an orientation but it makes more sense to me personally to include it under the umbrella of sexualities.
It's kind of like asking someone what their religion is and they say they're an atheist. Atheism isn't a religion, it's a lack of religion but people include it in the category for simplicity.

Either way, that's a bullshit reason to ban someone.

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Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby holosexual » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:13 pm

^
By associating ourselves with the lgbt many asexuals have the "choice independent" of straight asexuality removed
^

Only if you let it; choose your political poison: express hostile distance from LGX and forge a new dot on the demographic map in isolation, or embrace your own brand of diversity and stake it out within an existing umbrella whose themes grant you much more in common relative to the mainstream than you differ from those others within the purview afforded by LGX.

^
your all gay and are to afraid to be honest......might be a short coming don't you think?
^

Not any more than being told God created us straight and any different is suppression of "His" natural design, the way millions of LGXers deal with, it isn't *regards you quizzically* ...are you really that unused to not thinking of yourself as so terribly special in the eyes of bigots?

^
a very large part of those asexuals polled want nothing to do with the lgbt
^

No one's going to bend over backwards for you, especially if you're pursuing in a _political_ setting divisiveness as a means to identity and political capital rather than connecting with the broader themes uniting you, LGX, and the mainstream (not just the A for allies in LGBTQA). Again, I think you're asking politics to become personal, which is even more dangerous to ideology than is politics itself.

^
you are confusing celibacy with asexuality..there is no declaration within asexuality..you just are and exercising autonomy is a choice
^

Celibacy according to those asexual I have heard to define it, is a choice, contrasted with innate or ineluctable factors leading to asexuality. Where in characterizing asexuality as exercising autonomy to keep to yourself you get celibacy is anyone's guess. Declaration was what it was revealed to be in the eyes of those ignorant of its motivations, a tongue-in-cheek use, holding up a mirror to those obsessed with independent conformity...whatever, I guess it went over your head.

^
you feel you can have the choice of cake and eat it...leads very little for the honesty of asexuality as some cherry pick components whilst claiming they are asexual
^

You've faulted me for what others claiming asexuality may say. Uh..._huh_ :-| Oh, and you've insulted me while making several typographic errors. You can't fault me _my_ cake thinking because of me you can't have yours, without your forfeiting yourself yours, too. And you claim _I'm_ who set asexuality back!

Disjointed

Re: about to get banned from AVEN

Postby Disjointed » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:30 am

You are very suited to aven based on this one line ....You've faulted me for what others claiming asexuality may say. Uh..._huh_ :-| Oh, and you've insulted me while making several typographic errors and whatever, I guess it went over your head.

You had your opinion and I had mine, I did not say yours was offensive or that you insulted many people... I gave you my impression based on your terms and my reasoning behind them. If you are easily offended by people having different views and unable to accept they may have then I doubt you will feel I am the only person you feel has "insulted" you

Having made my point lets look at your returns shall we?

I'll list this as it states a direction that is contradicted by what you wrote on a few follwing returns

Only if you let it; choose your political poison: express hostile distance from LGX and forge a new dot on the demographic map in isolation, or embrace your own brand of diversity and stake it out within an existing umbrella whose themes grant you much more in common relative to the mainstream than you differ from those others within the purview afforded by LGX.

The lgbt like so many "minority" demands that others treat them equally then at the same time demands they be treated as "special" the contradiction is comedic and wins no fans. It flies in the face of logic but demands that they have their cake and eat it.

Most people these days are apathetic to groups "demanding" and largely ignore them. Where some of the more visible faces of Asexuality are visible, they try and associate Asexuality with these groups based on..hey we understand your plight of a smaller group and so can we join and hopefully pick up more recognition. They same could be said for pedophiles believing they do nothing wrong, libidoists, kkk etc...because you are a small group..association more than ever is and needs to be 100% or near dammit accurate!

Wrongly align and you never get a second chance for a first impression...hey you asexuals are all gay right..I saw your tags at gay pride marches..is a good example.

most real asexuals are very comfortable within their own asexuality and struggle no more than a sexual with the daily left and right of real life. During my times on asexual forums..those seeking to convince others of asexuality I find are trying to convince themselves they are than not so go mad insisting others must believe them.

Now as I have offered an opinion in return to yours I hope you are not offended..if you are then may I suggest you avoid the internet. I would also kindly suggest...your need to write 50 words rather than 1 loses much of your message and your audience and as such I'll refrain from replying to your posts out of kindness and boredom

Have a great day