we have expletive deleted?

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PiF
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we have expletive deleted?

Postby PiF » 27 Nov 2011, 23:13

wtf? i thought open words were okay?

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Olivier
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Olivier » 27 Nov 2011, 23:25

In the User Control Panel > Board Preferences tab > Display options, there's an option to bowlderise posts. I have the filter switched off, but your "f u c k"s are still showing up as "expletive deleted"s regardless. Maybe you need to switch it off on your end, too.

Edit: nope, it did it to mine, too, despite me having the filter turned off.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby PiF » 28 Nov 2011, 02:38

Thanks Oliver

right i turned off the nasty thing here goes

f*ck f*ck f*ck f*ck

i can see it when i type but the site shows it as expletive deleted?

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby fridayoak » 28 Nov 2011, 03:08

.

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KAGU143
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby KAGU143 » 28 Nov 2011, 03:42

Yes, we DO have a functional word filter at Apositive.

It will delete a few words that I feel are unnecessary when adults hold meaningful conversations.

I will confess, I sometimes swear like a sailor in real life, and I'm not offended by profanity under normal circumstances, but this is one of the small ways in which I am trying to keep the "feel" of Apositive different from some other, less mature parts of the internet.

I know that there are ways to work around the word filters, but let me make this very clear: They are there for a reason and they are to be respected.

If a user makes a habit of deliberately going around the word filters, that user will be banned.

Not for the profanity, but for proving that they have no respect for the rules of this board and that they will intentionally violate them.
The word filters prevent accidental mistakes, so if I see any of the prohibited words I will know that the offense was deliberate.
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby fridayoak » 28 Nov 2011, 04:30

what's the reasoning behind it though? I thought your philosophy was for Apositive to be virtually unmodded :eh:
Every forum I've been on (apart from AVEN funnily enough) has this sort of rule but everyone just gets round it either slyly or obviously by typing fock or fuuck or something - don't think anyone's been banned though on those sites, seems like a strange rule for Apositive. Just doesn't feel right for this site really.

I see "shit" is still allowed, is that so PiF can carry on using his "pound to a penny of horseshit" catchphrase? :P

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Dargon » 28 Nov 2011, 04:46

With regards to the filter being in place, I see valid points on both sides, and I tend to lean with side opposed to the filter, but it's not my call. Also, the filter ruins the joke about American beer and sex in a canoe.

However, with regards to people who get around via intentional typos like "fuuck" and the like; it really says something about one's maturity level if one takes the time and effort to intentionally get around the word filter list in such a manner.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby KAGU143 » 28 Nov 2011, 04:50

I already explained it, Friday.

Yes, Apositive is virtually unmodded, but that doesn't mean that it is entirely without standards of behavior. If you look at my signature you will see that the one type of troll that isn't tolerated here is the trollus pottimouthicuss cussii.
If my faux Latin doesn't make sense, I will translate it: essentially, profanity isn't welcome here.

Apositive has high standards, and the reason it is mostly unmoderated is because I expect our members to behave in a mature fashion (age doesn't matter - I have known 14 year-olds who were more mature than some so-called adults.) In other words, I trust the members here to moderate themselves and to keep Apositive a place where media representatives or researchers can drop in unannounced find a group of self-identified asexuals who don't sound like a bunch of squabbling juveniles.

If they want a bunch of squabbling juveniles, there is always AVEN.
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby fridayoak » 28 Nov 2011, 05:00

Dargon wrote:With regards to the filter being in place, I see valid points on both sides, and I tend to lean with side opposed to the filter, but it's not my call. Also, the filter ruins the joke about American beer and sex in a canoe.

However, with regards to people who get around via intentional typos like "fuuck" and the like; it really says something about one's maturity level if one takes the time and effort to intentionally get around the word filter list in such a manner.


I wouldn't say it's about maturity levels most of the time, I mean it only takes a split-second to put an extra "u" in so it's more just a habit people get used to (on busier forums anyway). One site had "sausages" come up if a certain word was used so in my opinion getting round that filter was a way more mature thing to do than have "sausages" in the text.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby KAGU143 » 28 Nov 2011, 05:12

If I could figure out a way to make the word censors work in all of the forums except for the fun and general area then I would do that, but it seems to have to be board-wide.

Sooo ... in the fun and general area I will *usually* overlook the "typo" types of profanity. It will depend on the exact word, of course, and if it's one that still would be offensive to some people then I will edit it.
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby PiF » 28 Nov 2011, 07:56

:silence: :wah:

Well I have to say I am surprised and slightly disappointed

Even in the shit fest that is aven they do not have language blocks

Assuming maturity is aligned with a university vocabulary seems a bit pompus and condescending to be honest

Some of us were raised in areas that saying fook off ya chancer would be the same as chap.. Are you playing a mind silliquey with my grey matter .. You rascal

Some of us communicate in different ways so it's disappointing that one way is banned

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby fridayoak » 28 Nov 2011, 08:49

So it's just the f-word and the c-word, and the racial n-word too that are blocked.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby KAGU143 » 28 Nov 2011, 10:39

I tried to keep it as minimal as possible.
PiF, did you know that the use of the "c" word and the "n" word were both bannable offenses at AVEN, at least when I was a mod several years ago - and yet that point was not specifically mentioned in the TOS I complained about that hidden trap I don't even know how many times ...
My thought was that a word which could lead to an insta-ban should be word-censored, because someone might use it without realizing the full consequences. Others thought otherwise, and I was always outvoted. AVEN once had a member from South Africa who was banned for using the "n" word. AVEN allows the "f" word to proliferate without restriction, and they are welcome to do so, but I have NEVER seen it in a scientific publication or in any other reputable publication which is geared toward the scientific community, and until that happens I don't want to see it here.

The more "colorful" style of communication is welcome in the fun and general area. Just use typos or creative phrasing to get your point across.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Dargon » 28 Nov 2011, 10:57

fridayoak wrote:I wouldn't say it's about maturity levels most of the time, I mean it only takes a split-second to put an extra "u" in so it's more just a habit people get used to (on busier forums anyway). One site had "sausages" come up if a certain word was used so in my opinion getting round that filter was a way more mature thing to do than have "sausages" in the text.


Aye, but it is a habit that must be trained. For the first several uses of the term, I would have to consciously alter the word. More likely I'd end up posting the post, noticing the change from the language bot, then having to go edit the post. Once it is a learned habit it may be quick, but teaching the habit is not.

And it may have been further mature to use a different word altogether rather than avoid "sausages." Though I would need the context to fully judge that, as I can imagine situations where the intentional typo would indeed be the mature response.


Since we're having a fun discussion, I think I'll bring in another idea into the mix. In settings such as web forums, cussing is typically something I do not do often. Part of this is because my words are the only basis for my entire character on forums, part is simply not to make waves (I'll make those with the content of my posts, not the individual words). One of the nifty advantages of this is that when you do cuss, people notice and it makes an impact. Frequent use of a word deadens its significance. Conversely, infrequent use of a word gives it power.

Furthermore, with regards to the cultural aspect, the cultures I am familiar with where profanity is commonplace are the types of cultures that embrace and idolize hardship and failure, and as such are cultures I'd like to not be associated with. That being said, there are certain ways in which those cultures use profanity that is unique to them.

A final aside, more for full disclosure than anything, when I am quite comfortable around people, and it has been shown to be okay to use profanity, I tend to use quite a bit. I say this only so people know I am not one of those "holier than thou" types when it comes to my use of vocabulary.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Olivier » 28 Nov 2011, 11:31

Well Nancy, I think the decision to enforce a filter is itself immature. This board, as it stood, has a voluntary filter for those who find that simple words have extraordinary power over their mood.

But that's not my objection. My objection is that you're solving a problem that doesn't, to my mind, even exist.

Discourse here has been of a very high standard, without gratuitous profanity, but it's on the subject of sex, so "f uck" in particular when it has been used has been used for a reason. I remember coming to Apositive a while back when not logged in (which turns the filter on, that I have turned off in my profile), and the filter really mucked up the flow of a thread I wanted to post a link to. While I thought that a filter was an immature naivety then, I was mollified by the fact that I could turn it off.

I've exercised my Google-fu, and this is, I think, a close to exhaustive list (and it's short enough to quote every f uck-containing paragraph in a single post) of all the "f uck"s on Apositive in nearly 4 years. I defy you to tell me these are trolling posts:

spin wrote:Here's one for everybody. What is or would theoretically be important for you to talk about with a partner before starting to have sex? (define "sex" however you choose). For me, besides a good talk about consent and limits the basics include disclosing sexual history and health, discussing forms of protection we're planning to use, and making positive they're pro-choice (reproductive rights: don't [expletive deleted] with 'em, don't [expletive deleted] without 'em ). I think it's critical to have an explicit conversation about these things, even if I know or could guess what the answers will be.


ghosts wrote:All of the anti-sex(ual) content can really get to me, as someone who cares for sexuals & who has sex. Yet, I'm told that I shouldn't speak up, that I should let people rant and vent.

I can kind of understand that... Some people coming into AVEN have had some pretty negative experiences, it seems. I can't really say that I have - I know a lot of [expletive deleted] awesome people that just so happen to enjoy sex & do so responsibly & respectfully (and hey, I'm one of them). But sure enough, there are a lot of assholes out there. Sexual abuse is not just an asexual issue, as we all know. & a lot of people can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of asexuality, so coming out can often bring a lot of frustrations to an asexual who is not being accepted by the people around them.


spin wrote:I do feel like I overanalyze everything, in part because that's just how I am and in part because I've spent so much time thinking about all this stuff in hammering out my (a)sexual identity. I find myself breaking down my attraction to him on various axes, and then I realize what I'm doing and think, "[expletive deleted] it! I love him, who cares." 'cause really, what does it matter if I'm attracted to him physically vs aesthetically or if I can define "romantic" attraction? I do like describing things, though. I feel good about having worked out I'm sexually interested but not sexually attracted. It makes sense in my head.


Olivier wrote:The most obvious compromises involve a compromise on frequency (the couple agree on a something between the sexual partner's preferred frequency and zero) or a compromise on the source of sex (mistress/[expletive deleted] arrangements, or polyamory). But what I'd be interested to hear about are compromises on the type of sexual activity in the relationship.

(pretty sure that used to be "f uckbuddy")

spin wrote:A word--relationship, Relationship, friend, girlfriend, lover, cuddlebuddy, [expletive deleted], partner heterosexual life partner, neighbor, grandmother, brother, whatever--is never going to encompass what that relationship is. Kez, I know you were talking about the nature of relationships more than semantics, but I think the semantics here are just semantics. I think relationships in general have lots of capacity for growth and change, and that those changes can indeed go unspoken.

(and that, too)

Dargon wrote:I see no reason physical intimacy is the defining element between a relationship and a Relationship. It is true society places a lot of value on it, but if it did truely and universally carry the value society wants us to believe it does, then "[expletive deleted]," and other no-strings-attached sex wouldn't exist. Additionally, most "[expletive deleted]," while they do share the physical intimacy that apparently defines a Relationship, will insist they are "just friends."

(and that)

Dargon wrote:So, by "harm no one" standards, things like polyamory, premarital sex. no-strings-attached sex (ie the [expletive deleted] or the one-night-stand) really aren't "wrong" (so long as all parties involved are ok with it).

(and that)

Placebo wrote:Ok, so the stuff above can probably go for both sexual and asexual relationships, I think. I guess sex could also fit into it at any of the levels. So the bottom level, the non-priority friends, would be where friends with benefits/expletive deleted would probably fall.

(and that). In fact this whole topic on f*ckbuddies is now unreadable: http://apositive.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=195

SpirallingSnowy wrote:sorry guys, its turned into an essay..... any idea where i could possibly start in trying to make this not so complicated without him thinking me trying to sort it out means im about to call it a relationship? Im not in the rel with him for reasons not related to my asexuality. And im putting off the rel till im certain about it. because otherwise im repeating old patterns and it will all [expletive deleted] up again..... lol


Emmarainbow wrote:If there was more open discussion and so forth about sex and its ability to *not* happen as well as people being expected to [expletive deleted] like rabbits at the slightest provocation, being asexual would be so much less of a big deal, and people wouldn't have so much pressure on the whole 'losing virginity' thing. And we could talk about things sensibly.

(ironic that this plea to be able to talk about sex like adults, not giggling schoolchildren, is now censored, schoolmarm-style :roll:)

Olivier wrote:No, Ms Roy says that if you claim to be asexual, but have sex, then the asexual claim is just a pose, and your sexual behaviour "proves who you really are". Exactly the same. "If you're a man [expletive deleted] a man, you're homosexual. Own it! -- that's who you really are -- no bisexuality cake for you". Exactly the same.
...
I mean, surely the celibate themselves has an interest in understanding their own sexuality. And so why shouldn't that knowledge be part of our communal understanding of how sexuality works? How it IS? Why should our understanding of sexuality be limited to understanding the sexualities those we may potentially expletive deleted?


Emmarainbow wrote:Hell yes! - it's a big topic of discussion at my LGBetc, about dropping all the bloomin' labels. That's why it's called Aberpride. I have heard an individual complaining about how it should be like the old days, just an LGB; (the actual phrasing was 'now any [expletive deleted]' misfit can join...' I thought that was the point! He mentioned asexuals and I was right there... anyway...) the exclusion stung. I am the midway point between so many different modes of sexuality - it's very frustrating! However, he was the only person to dissent in any way to my inclusion to the society, everyone else was very accepting, and most of them understood at least the basics.


ghosts wrote:I admittedly get really into these kinds of discussions, but at the end of the day, I don't let it bother me about whether or not one or more of my relationships are "technically" romantic or not, whether I experience romantic attraction, how I should label my relationships, etc. It's cool to think about, but I really just like [expletive deleted] with peoples' concepts of these terms and relationships in general rather than going through some sort of personal identity crisis, if that makes any sense.


spin wrote:Freud is crap.

Thing about Freud is he started out in psychology by analyzing himself (dude had some [expletive deleted] issues) and why he didn't mourn his father's death (parent issues!). Then he went on to develop theories using "hysterical" women, which is not terribly applicable to general populations. Trouble is he had some valid and revolutionary points--like the very idea of subconscious emotions or thought processes--which took off, but his "research" was all so convoluted and poorly executed that we're still fighting the stupid misogynist phallocentric drivel, which far outnumbered those valid points.


chlirissa wrote:With coming out I eventually realized that all those torturous conversations where people sit around and point out hotties or ask you who you'd rather [expletive deleted] are educational opportunities. They used to make incredibly uncomfortable (I still have a residual anxiety especially around people I don't know well), but now I try to be as open as I can about how I don't actually feel sexual attraction. I think it can be easy to turn off people who are interested in you if you only talk about the negative definition of asexual, so I'd recommend being sure to talk about what you do experience as much as what you don't.


lightningbug wrote:All I know is, sex for me seemed the least important thing in a relationship. I wanted something more. Conversation even! And for many years, sex seemed passionless. Especially right now at my age, 24. It just seems expected that someone my age has sex for the [expletive deleted] sake of having sex. Making the dating scene even more nauseating.


hypnotoad, quoting an AVEN post wrote:However, I still have never been attracted to another human being. I used to have no attraction AT ALL, but more recently I've started to be somewhat attracted to females. Not actual ones though, just pictures on the internet. And it's not really a "OMG I WANT TO [expletive deleted] THAT" reaction, it's more of a "wow, she's hot" type thing. I still get no reaction from males though. I don't get turned on at all by the thought of naked guys, but do when I'm thinking about naked girls.


flergalwit, quoting an AVEN post wrote:you know what, I just... WHAT THE [expletive deleted], AVEN, REALLY? I don't even have words for this shit any more.


ghosts wrote:I suppose that's a really weird way of thinking about it, but I think it's sort of related to DJ's idea of community-based intimacy in a way. Alas, while the bands I'm in are generally big commitments, I think there's an understanding that it might not last forever because that's the way bands often operate, unfortunately.

Now, what would that mean with the big R little r system (or am I just hopelessly expletive deleted up?)? Band = Relationship, individual bandmembers = relationships - or maybe Relationships, I'd have to think on that, grandmother = Relationship, that one individual bandmember = Relationship


fisharmy wrote:Recently, i've had more and more girls trying it on and basically if I wanted it, it's there on a plate. The thing is, i'm absolutly shitting myself at this! I mean, I dont want to go to certain parties/ nights out currently as I know there's gonna be girls who want me and will try it on, and I just dont wanna end up in a situation where I have to make my excuses and get the [expletive deleted] outta there! I've never really been THAT bothered about sex, and haven't even masterbated bizarelly enough, as the thought makes me feel.....odd! Kind of, lets say....dirty/ wrong? [expletive deleted] knows!


disjointed/PiF wrote:for many the short term dating..or [expletive deleted] buddies is normally for yhe buzz and the chase along with a guaranteed shag at the end


PiF wrote:I personally don't hold with this asexual till "you meet someone special then you feel sexual" because it gives the impression that all sexuals just want to [expletive deleted] all the time which i''m pretty sure isn't the case..it also gives the impression that asexuality is a flick of the switch kinda fickle thing


What, honestly, has been gained by wrecking the readability of these posts? All it's doing is ruining readability by overlaying (can I say that here?) a prudish political message. There's no potty-mouthed trolling there, just honest language.

In all seriousness, I don't use "f uck" very often, but when I do, I do for a reason. If this ridiculous filter is not turned off, then with all respect I'll continue to use "f uck" when I see fit, using simple workarounds, and accept any ban that comes from that.

But what I really want if for it to be turned off right now, so that all the posts above aren't mangled as they have been.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby fridayoak » 28 Nov 2011, 11:39

Dargon wrote:
fridayoak wrote:
Since we're having a fun discussion, I think I'll bring in another idea into the mix. In settings such as web forums, cussing is typically something I do not do often. Part of this is because my words are the only basis for my entire character on forums, part is simply not to make waves (I'll make those with the content of my posts, not the individual words). One of the nifty advantages of this is that when you do cuss, people notice and it makes an impact. Frequent use of a word deadens its significance. Conversely, infrequent use of a word gives it power.


I agree, which makes this decision all the more strange as I haven't seen anything remotely near excessive swearing levels on this site. If as Nancy alluded to the reason is because Apositive wants to see itself as a scientific journal type site then I understand that but really I (and others I'm sure) am not of a scientific background so when I use this site I wold be talking more from the heart. When I do that I will tend to swear more as I will be either be arguing a point or telling a story, which like you say the odd well-placed swearword will add something too.

I guess this rule is a reaction to some of the recent unpleasantness featuring michaels but really people swearing in that context was a bye product of the general confrontational stance he was taking, in my opinion.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Olivier » 28 Nov 2011, 11:49

As you can see from my list, I don't think the recent unpleasantness contained any of the banned words. Ironically, the posts that have been mangled are for the most part serious (yet casual) discussions of the dynamics of sex and sexuality, including some threads which, as resources, I think are way ahead of anything in the scientific literature.

It's a counterproductive measure, as censorship usually is.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby PiF » 28 Nov 2011, 12:23

Totally respect where your coming from Nancy..your site your rules

to be fair the use of C and N I knew was frowned upon in aven although certianly the N word when used in situations like..why is it okay to say it if your one skin colour and not the other kinda discussions but never as a direct abuse at an individual

However..certianly for me the context is within the discussion and relative..like fuckbuddies..some tart it up as friends with benefits but they are fuckbuddies never the less

Now I totally agree that saying hey you your a fffin C to an individual member would be norty..but I don't see that in apositive and rarely saw that within aven where you are allowed some wordage

Perhaps given that even us sex positive asexuals fuckevery now and again and can be trusted..perhaps we can swear now and again and be trusted also?

again your site your rules..for me personally..I do feel restricted in a way I never felt on aven..that's my problem I understand

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby fridayoak » 28 Nov 2011, 13:01

"Expletive deleted" has got a nice asexual vibe to it though, maybe the activists can use it as a slogan on t-shirts and stuff at parades.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Dargon » 28 Nov 2011, 14:14

PiF wrote:to be fair the use of C and N I knew was frowned upon in aven although certianly the N word when used in situations like..why is it okay to say it if your one skin colour and not the other kinda discussions but never as a direct abuse at an individual


It always makes me chuckle when in discussions about the very nature of a word, people still pussyfoot around the word itself.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby KAGU143 » 28 Nov 2011, 14:49

Thanks, Friday. I hadn't really considered that aspect of it, but you're right.

Olivier, your objections are noted, as is the fact that all of the examples which you quoted date back to when the site was under different ownership, as is the fact that all of those posts could have been worded in other ways without losing any of their meaning.

Your use of the term "... now censored, schoolmarm-style" is interesting. Are you trying to shame me, somehow, by comparing me to a benevolent classroom authority?
Do you think that classrooms are more effective when they are unsupervised?

You, Pif and Friday seem like very articulate speakers, and I am having a hard time imagining how the loss of one low-class slang term could be such a hindrance to your ability to communicate. People seem to use the "f" word most often as a lazy speaker's shortcut in place of any number of other verbs or adjectives which have actual, specific meanings.
As such, it actually detracts from the meaning of spoken language and becomes nothing more than an expletive.

By the way, when the topic really is meant to concern meaningless sex that benefits one partner at the expense of another, the terms "rape" and "screw" are not restricted.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Olivier » 28 Nov 2011, 18:06

KAGU143 wrote:Olivier, your objections are noted, as is the fact that all of the examples which you quoted date back to when the site was under different ownership, as is the fact that all of those posts could have been worded in other ways without losing any of their meaning.

While those posts could have been worded differently, the fact is they weren't, and now they've been mangled by the filter. Given that there have only been a dozen or so uses of the word "f uck" in four years, and only about two on your watch, it seems you're hell-bent on using nuclear weapons to kill cockroaches in your kitchen. Words like "f uckbuddy" get used when people want to communicate a particular concept - sure you could say "friends with benefits" but that actually has different nuances to "f uckbuddy".

KAGU143 wrote:Your use of the term "... now censored, schoolmarm-style" is interesting. Are you trying to shame me, somehow, by comparing me to a benevolent classroom authority?

Too damn right I'm trying to shame you. We're adults here. I haven't required a benevolent classroom authority for many decades now, and I have no desire at all to apply for readmission to kindergarten. What you are doing by applying this filter is patronising and infantilising the membership, and I resent it. Moreover, I think that seeking to put oneself in a position of benevolent classroom authority over one's peers is unusual, and unhealthy.

KAGU143 wrote: Do you think that classrooms are more effective when they are unsupervised?

Yes, I think that conversations between adults are more effective without the need to play silly "you can say screw but you can't say f uck!" games. I don't think I need you to supervise my speech. I don't think Pif does, and I don't think michaels does, or flergalwit does, or spin does, either. Do you really think that bleeping out one word every three months here, or people typing "screw" instead of "f uck" or "regular casual sex partner" instead of "f uckbuddy" will make this place more effective? Really?

KAGU143 wrote:You, Pif and Friday seem like very articulate speakers, and I am having a hard time imagining how the loss of one low-class slang term could be such a hindrance to your ability to communicate. People seem to use the "f" word most often as a lazy speaker's shortcut in place of any number of other verbs or adjectives which have actual, specific meanings.

I don't think that criticism applies very well to the quotes I listed, at all. And let's not kid ourselves that "f uck" is a low-class word. Its use is universal, and surely spans every possible class of person in our world.

KAGU143 wrote:As such, it actually detracts from the meaning of spoken language and becomes nothing more than an expletive.

Again, I really don't think that's a valid observation of the use of the word "f uck" on these boards. Its use as an expletive runs to about two or three uses in nearly four years, and even then without detracting from the meaning of the posts it was used in. If you want to keep making claims about how the standard of discourse here is being dragged to hell in a handbasket by the word "f uck", then you should have no trouble backing up that claim with half a dozen examples.

KAGU143 wrote:By the way, when the topic really is meant to concern meaningless sex that benefits one partner at the expense of another, the terms "rape" and "screw" are not restricted.

As I said above, that just makes it silly games then, doesn't it. F uck doesn't mean rape, and if you can say screw, which in that context is also considered an obscene expletive by some, then what's the point of the filter?

It seems to me that this is simply a case of you imposing your personal preference on the board. As someone who pays the bills you have that right, but if you're going to impose your preferences on people, then you have to expect that those people may feel imposed upon. I do, and I'm letting you know.

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Olivier
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Olivier » 28 Nov 2011, 19:31

As an aside, our kids are always finding ways to stall at bedtime to avoid going to sleep. Getting annoyed by this ridiculous new policy here was the straw that finally broke the camel's back to convince me that it was time I read "Go the F*ck to Sleep" to them.

For those that aren't aware of this book, it reached #1 on the Amazon best seller lists six months before its release, and was written by a professor of literature and illustrated by someone who does work for the NY Times. Here it is narrated by Samuel L. Jackson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUN3ENYkaVY

and by eminent Australian actor and children's television presenter, Noni Hazelhurst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xtcB457jqQ

PiF
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby PiF » 28 Nov 2011, 21:21

KAGU143 wrote:You, Pif and Friday seem like very articulate speakers,


I iz articulate??? I have never been called that before 8| ..fuckme with a drain pipe..I'm gunna get a new tattoo to go with the W on each arse cheek and it will say..see bitches..i am articulate

to be honest nancy it's not the one word but often as some may have noticed..I leave the flowing transcribe of the dictionary to others and offer my slightly less worded opinion and within that i have my own flow and within that comes a more basic and fruity language

some like me call a spade a spade whilst others will tell you it's a gardening implement brilliantly engineererd to perform manual articulation whilst in the act of landscaping and replenishing the flora and fauna

difference is my terminology is restricted whilst others can be more cutting, attacking and hurtfull just because the words sound tidier

Again..I respect your wishes Nancy to have it that way but i did want to point out that it restricts real world cross match of people and styles in favour of excluding/restricting one

I won't comment on this one anymore :sigh:

flergalwit
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby flergalwit » 29 Nov 2011, 00:18

As of yesterday I would have said: if I was in charge I'd probably do the same thing. If I owned a website, I'd have a general preference that swear words do not appear on it. Hence the rule.

On the other hand, I have to admit that Olivier has a valid point. Given that sex is a topic of discussion here, there are some cases where the f word is really the most natural one to use. F*buddies is the most obvious example, but there are others. Still, it's not difficult to communicate the same meaning without swearing.

Further, I'm not a fan of the mangling either. A better approach (if the software allows it) I think would be to temporarily reject any posts containing swear words, to allow the person to rephrase.

Incidentally, I usually try to edit out swear words when I'm quoting other people's posts, filter or no filter. I see I failed in the case of that post I quoted from AVEN!

- flergalwit
(A fan of "This bloke came up to me" by Derek & Clive; check it out on youtube, from 2min onwards for the entertaining part.)

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KAGU143
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby KAGU143 » 29 Nov 2011, 05:19

It is easier to prevent a message board from being cluttered up with profanity than it is to go back, after the fact, and try to clean it up. Verbal swearing is one thing, but when it is in print it becomes a permanent comment on the quality and standards of whatever publication it is associated with.

Think what you want, Olivier. If you are reading profanity to your children then you are already part of the problem, mainly because you are denying that the problem exists, so there is no point in seeking your assistance in solving it. A person's pattern of speech reveals a great deal about their education, their social status, their self-respect and their respect for others. If you think otherwise then you are truly beyond hope.

So - swear all you want, and teach your children that it's perfectly all right to swear like sailors, too. That is your decision as a parent, and I can respect it.
I don't insist that you agree with my decision as the administrator of this board. I would prefer that you respect it whether you agree with it or not, but if that isn't possible then I'm not going to worry about what you think - as long as you are willing to try to comply.

In the overall scheme of things, there is nothing that I can do about the deterioration of the English language, but I CAN make a difference in this one small part of the world, and I fully intend to do so. I sincerely wish that my own language skills were more polished, because in a text-only format there is no tone of voice or body language to help convey the precise, intended meaning of any given statement. Carefully chosen and arranged words are the only tools that we have.

And to PiF: Yes - you can be very articulate! Don't sell yourself short. Dyslexia is a challenge but it's one that you seem to be very capable of overcoming - especially when you set your mind to it.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

flergalwit
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby flergalwit » 29 Nov 2011, 07:06

My parents let my sister and me watch the Young Ones, Bottom (including the live version with all the swear words) when we were little, as well as Derek and Clive. Neither of us swear in real life these days; online the worst I'll usually use is "wtf".

I doubt Olivier is teaching his kids it's ok to swear like sailors. Using the f word in highly specialized circumstances, such as reading the book, probably has the opposite effect, as it demystifies their use. It's no longer something exciting, new and rebellious if even the parents allow it to be said, albeit only very occasionally.

It's when young children use swear words casually that I have a problem with it.

Thinking it over, I have to say the prohibition here on swear words really doesn't bother me at all. In fact I think I prefer it this way. Still it would be much better if posts violating this were rejected before going out, similar to the way some fora temp-reject posts with formatting errors. Letting them be posted but mangling them with the filter is not a good idea, especially as there are no square brackets so technically what appears is actually a misquote, by usual editing standards.

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KAGU143
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby KAGU143 » 29 Nov 2011, 07:24

Good point, Flerg. I will see if I can modify the censor so that it includes the brackets, because that would definitely be better.
I also agree that it would be a good solution - in fact, a 100% better solution - if posts containing censored words were automatically submitted for review, but I don't think the software has that option. I will check the ACP again, but I've never seen anything that seemed to indicate that possibility.

In the extremely rare situations where the "f" word might truly be the only word that could be used, I would certainly make allowances for it - especially if the reason for its use were indicated in the text. But, as nothing more than a form of emphasis? No.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

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Olivier
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Olivier » 29 Nov 2011, 10:51

KAGU143 wrote:It is easier to prevent a message board from being cluttered up with profanity than it is to go back, after the fact, and try to clean it up. Verbal swearing is one thing, but when it is in print it becomes a permanent comment on the quality and standards of whatever publication it is associated with.

In that case, you should go and add "s crew", "s hit", "a sshole", "a rseole", "c rap" and all the others that are still let through by the filter, or perhaps you should go through the board like a micromanager editing and/or deleting text that does not meet your standards. You are seeking editorial control, but do not want to seem to want to invest the time in being an editor. Using a tool to help you is one thing, but when the tool lets crassness through, but blocks considered use of taboo words, then it's not doing the job you want it to.

And I still can't see how sixteen paragraphs in four years, most of which made considered, not crass, use of taboo words, is "cluttering up" the board. You keep making this assertion that the filter is needed to prevent profanity overwhelming the board, and yet there is to my mind PRECISELY NO EVIDENCE that this is occurring, or is a threat of occurring.

KAGU143 wrote:Think what you want, Olivier. If you are reading profanity to your children then you are already part of the problem, mainly because you are denying that the problem exists, so there is no point in seeking your assistance in solving it. A person's pattern of speech reveals a great deal about their education, their social status, their self-respect and their respect for others. If you think otherwise then you are truly beyond hope.

Thanks for the free character assessment. I'm really sorry I posted that second post, because I worried at the time it would give you an easy target to latch on to, and thus a way of totally ignoring the substance of my previous post. As it happens, my kids are educated on what swearing is, and when it's appropriate, and do not find it shocking, nor cool. My 9-year old read "Go the F*ck to Sleep", but refused to read the lines with swearing in them aloud, as it happens.

flergalwit wrote:I doubt Olivier is teaching his kids it's ok to swear like sailors. Using the f word in highly specialized circumstances, such as reading the book, probably has the opposite effect, as it demystifies their use. It's no longer something exciting, new and rebellious if even the parents allow it to be said, albeit only very occasionally.

Flergalwit (who also was allowed to hear swearing as a child, but does not swear indiscriminately) gets it...

KAGU143 wrote:So - swear all you want, and teach your children that it's perfectly all right to swear like sailors, too. That is your decision as a parent, and I can respect it.

... and you don't get it, or you wouldn't draw the conclusions you do about what I'm teaching my children.

KAGU143 wrote:I don't insist that you agree with my decision as the administrator of this board. I would prefer that you respect it whether you agree with it or not, but if that isn't possible then I'm not going to worry about what you think - as long as you are willing to try to comply.

On the contrary, it will be no trouble to comply with it, but I will never respect it.

KAGU143 wrote:In the overall scheme of things, there is nothing that I can do about the deterioration of the English language, but I CAN make a difference in this one small part of the world, and I fully intend to do so. I sincerely wish that my own language skills were more polished, because in a text-only format there is no tone of voice or body language to help convey the precise, intended meaning of any given statement. Carefully chosen and arranged words are the only tools that we have.

And this is the heart of the problem. You want to control other's speech. Yes, as a proprietor of a forum you have that ability, but it doesn't change what you're doing. There's a difference between asking and telling. Controlling your own speech is an obvious starting point. Asking others to use a certain form of speech is again something you should feel free to do. But actually controlling other's speech - in this case going back and editing people's past writing to conform with your preferences, is simply Bowdlerisation. You've published people's posts in a form that they did not write, substituting nonsense for meaning. That's nothing to be proud of.

In the end, you can do what you like. As it happens, I'm quite aware that this is, to an extent, my problem. My family background is Eastern European and I've seen first hand some pretty awful outcomes from the controlling of speech. So I don't like even the smallest amount of it. Other people's mileage varies, and what I find offensive, others think is an action against offensiveness.

As an editorial policy to uphold standards of discourse, what you're doing is lazy and ineffective, ironically the same accusations you level against people who use certain words.

Birdwing
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Re: we have expletive deleted?

Postby Birdwing » 30 Nov 2011, 23:01

x
(I no longer visit this site or AVEN, and I've blocked private messages. Just FYI.)


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