Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

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Tanwen
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:14 am

Traditionally member polls have been non binding (on the admods), but in the past we did take notice and managed to do things fairly quickly. I'm thinking of The Grey Area - something that Birdwing proposed, started a discussion thread conducted a poll and put it to admods. I think the forum itself was created and opened within a few weeks and the admods didn't even want the it! There was a review after 6 months, it was well used so it stayed.
In the past admods responded to the wishes of the members when a strong enough case was put forward. We did not have to resort to 'projects for bios'. Do you mean the bios that people who've nominated themselves for a vacancy? When I proposed having 'guidelines' for this, it was only a simple matter of things that could be included if people wanted to, a rough guide to length there was no minimum length but not too long. Why the dickens do you need a 'project' for it.
If you mean finite terms for admods, again the KISS principle. Mods serve a maximum of 2 years from their election (many don't even make it that far); the post automatically goes for nominations. Sitting admods can reapply of course.
I used to think that admins should be exempt but no reason why they should - they go back into the general membership pool and can work their way 'up' again.

Of course, it will never happen because only admods could put it into action and, well, they're too comfortable with things the way they are.
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:30 am

Funny things is...the suggestion for a 2 year post...is actually more favourable than the current rules because the suggestion was more forward thinking than the usual mod implementations

We both know Tan that they introduced the "you can't apply for the post you just left" rule just to get to you

This would mean that when the 2 year role was up....under current admod created rules...not one single admod could run for the post again should they wish too

Some of us see beyond our own needs(unlike the admods) and said..when a mod finishes their two year term then they should be able to run for that vacant post, the same as any member. This allows them to run again if they wish to and then have just an equal chance of being elected ensuring equality for all...the change would not discriminate against a mod as it currently does at the end of the two years

Given the two year role is already in place with the project team...there is an aven backroom working example that shows two year roles work and work well

The members when asked in a poll created by the team... asked by a majority for the 6 months qualification for a mod role to be returned...and by an even larger majority asked that all backroom team staff are treated equally by having regular elections of which the 2 year current pt standard is the best for all...it was..and remains so...ignored

I can see why SOME in the backroom don't want this...but those people do not care about aven, nor do they care about avens member opinions/votes..they only care about themselves and as far as the membership is concerned...those people are sticking two fingers upto the membership and aven and are blocking equality and fairness for all

Enough members sought to change this and by a fair majority...I can see no justification why this is not happening...can you?

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:10 pm

To be honest, no. If the mod has done a good enough job they'll be re-elected. As you said, it works and works very well with the PT, so why should admods be any different? I've always said I couldn't stand for PT as I lack the imagination needed, I think most of the PT who stand for re-election get through, so point proved. Are mods afraid that the membership would not consider it worthwhile letting them carry on? Maybe one or two, there are some good ones who truly have the membership's interests at heart
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby SkyWorld » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:21 pm

Admods does seem to have a history to make up rules as they go along (or sometimes enforcing rules that don't exist) just to restrict a single person, it's highly questionable... And then yet take action with their new rules on events that happened before those rules were even made. Which is one of the reasons why the ToS needs a serious looking over to make sure it's consistent through and through and more clear.

As for term limits, I actually highly favor them and I think AVEN as a whole would run so much better with them. Although, of course, not necessarily all admods would agree...

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:30 pm

I agree..I also think it would make the team run smoother...seem less elitist and reduce the ..them and us..in fact I think many would be prepared to overlook the past if there was a hope of a decent future

As to the tos..there are some good ones in the backroom and some members that would work well together to achieve this

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:42 pm

Convention always was that new rules could not be applied retroactively. Admods are rather good at interpreting things to their own advantage. I'm thinking of Ciri's situation where she was told that she had to ask for permission before putting her name forward for any mod position...which she did but has always been told 'No', so why not be honest and say 'Never in this life'?

In my case, I'm unpopular because of the stand I made to defend others; given the same situation I would do the same thing. It really isn't for me to 'prove' to admods that I can be trusted; I can't do that any more than Ciri can. Surely it's up to the members to say whether or not we can be trusted or can't they be trusted to do that?
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby SkyWorld » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:57 pm

Not to mention that admods also have a history of being pretty resistant, but there are some excellent examples that goes against that statement: DT, new forums, etc. So it is possible to have some kind of change for AVEN, but it most certainly wouldn't be easy.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:05 pm

I'd think it would be easier to get an oil tanker to turn on a penny ;)
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:01 pm

SkyWorld wrote:Not to mention that admods also have a history of being pretty resistant, but there are some excellent examples that goes against that statement: DT, new forums, etc. So it is possible to have some kind of change for AVEN, but it most certainly wouldn't be easy.


as a majority the admods have often done themselves no favours..some of them have downright screwed it up for the rest of the team and probably brought most of the shit they have had back there, due to their own actions.

The dt took years to get to and made enough enemies of those resistant to change, some members who continually argued for the dt, suffered consequences from the team that are just plain unacepptable...that said..if we are to go forwards then we have to see that we now have a dt team in place

It does sadden me however that those most resistant to change are now hiding due process from the members that they enforce the rules on..by discussing tos implementations and alledged breaks, in the admods skype knowing it will not be seen in declass so in effect reducing the ability for the dt to reflect to the members what is going on

The new forums...the idea of aven was as a asexual resource for asexuals that welcomes everyone else....and now we have more sexual forums than asexual..the balance is too far out of kilter and needs to be addressed.....quantity has never been a guarranty of quality

Can the mods change?..some will never change and they are the dangerous ones to have in the team and should be asked to leave , aven is not their personal toy or tool to punish others.....some will hate to change but will, realising they still have a lot to offer the newer ones coming on so will change and in time will see the benefit...some of the newer ones are a bit frantic but if mentored right will have a lot to offer too

The 2 year term will benefit all of those who genuinely want aven to succeed...those people will be the enablers of the backroom

For those who have forgotten why they joined the backroom and believe they are the sole reason why it exists..they need to move on

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:13 pm

Pook wrote:Those changes were voted on by members and members were in favour of them. Why should the team ignore what the community wants here?


indeed so that will mean

the members vote asking by a majority to return the mod qualifying period back to 6 months as it was and not the 3 months the admods thrust upon us will now be acted upon?

That also means the members vote and by some substantial majority to bring in term periods for mods by regular elections will now be acted upon?

The only thing we need now is when is it going to happen?..the ring fencing of aven happened in 4 days and the justification was it was what the members wanted.....the changes that would effect the admods were voted on in january but still the team refuse to abide by the members vote for change and it was what the members wanted

You have to ask..why do the admods think they are above the members? to date not one admod has said when these two member majority vote changes are going to happen..if anything we HAVE seen they will do everything to avoid them happening

Members votes they like..4 days before action...members votes they don't like because it effects them....no action but burried and hidden

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby CosineTheCat » Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:42 am

SkyWorld wrote:Not to mention that admods also have a history of being pretty resistant, but there are some excellent examples that goes against that statement: DT, new forums, etc. So it is possible to have some kind of change for AVEN, but it most certainly wouldn't be easy.


I think I've just been overall lucky that a lot of the projects that I've proposed have been very much membership based and very little to do with the forum itself. I can't even say "Otherwise, I might have different opinions of Admods", because in general, I've seen how things are run. Regularly people talk about how to better the site, but without membership backing a lot pushing the way, a lot of things people propose go unnoticed. A single admod needs backing of other admods to propose whatever they want, but we can't share it with members less it be breaching. Members can't propose things because "they don't understand admods only". It's a vicious cycle that leaves no change. Admods tend to need a backing of membership to have a change happen, but even when there is a backing... it's ignored and buried.

Don't get me wrong, I really like being part of admods, but gosh. I do get tired of the things. >>One reason why I left admods to join PT<< :silence:

I do honestly miss being admin. I felt that membership trusted me often enough and, although yes, I did hand out a lot of warns to my fellow chatters, none of them held it against me. Idk, maybe one day I'll go back.
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:05 am

How about a radical approach to things - only reports and disciplinary issues count as 'potential breach'. Anything affecting members should be discussed with members, we should be included rather than told 'admods have decided. Thing is admods used to listen to the members - remember the Grey Forum was member driven, Oldies may have been too, I can't really remember too well. Nor do I remember just when the 'We know better' began to creep into the 'backroom'. It is not good, nor will it sit well with the membership and without them, there is no AVEN
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:33 am

I think what is quite striking and stands out a country mile

When it comes to getting elected, the mods and future mods trust the members to get them elected and into the backroom

When it comes to having two year elections for the admods....the very same admods do not trust the members at all

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:10 am

Or perhaps some may think they haven't really served the members who elected them and may be pushed aside and another voted in :)
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby SkyWorld » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:52 am

Why I think AVEN would run much better if admods had term limits is competition, which would breed motivation. If they want to keep their position, they will offer the best that they can be which AVEN deserves. If not, we can get someone who will. If they're doing a good job, there shouldn't be anything they have to worry about. If not, there is nothing stopping them from improving and then run again.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:23 am

Which is why I agree it is not about punishing the bad but more about rewarding the good...again look at the pt...those that have done well and chose to run again I believe were sucessfull because there was measurable performance points

At the momment it's a bit like "no matter what I do or can't be arsed to do, no one can do anything about it"..whilst some of the newer ones are simply never getting a fair chance to give back to the community as it is only dead mans shoes

The current system could almost be a SNL skit

So admods...what do you think of the members?

"Weelllll hey they are great people, we love them, love them to bits...value their input...after all they voted us in right :thumb: :thumb: "

That's good to know admods...so what do you think about the members wanting admod roles to be like the project team and last for 2 years then the role goes up for election?

Whaatttt? are you f*cking kidding me? those ungratefull commie Prick bastards, don't they know who we are? Team.... on skype now! we need to change the tos quick smart to ban as many of these f*ckers as we can..Who on earth told them they can have an input?

That would be funny if it wasn't currently true and the standard they currently apply to avens own members.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:45 pm

Sorry for the late reply on this, it took far too long for me to even get a solid response on if I’m allowed to share some of this information.
PiF. I have made a post on this thread stating that if there is an issue that you see in AVEN, then you only need to message me here. If there is really something that you do not like about it, then you only need message me. Yes, I am a newer mod. Which should be a good thing to you, because that means that I was not one of the admods that you seem to dislike so much. If there was any real criticism that people cared about and want fixed, they only need to message me. I promise that I will bring it up to the other admods and discuss it. I won't let it get forgotten, and have even pestered a few admods to get some opinions on what I bring up. Therefore, if you really cared about all of this as much as you seem to act like you do, you'd have sent me a message.

And yes, every bit of criticism that I've been sent (there's been a handful) I've brought up in admods and come up with legitimate solutions to solve. Granted, I'm newer so we'll still need time to discuss these ideas before they take affect. If there was ever anything found wrong with these ideas, I have altered them to fix them or listened to others that provide a better solution. I don't let these threads die because I legitimately am trying to improve the community, even if you don't see me much on there. Which is exactly why you won't see me much on there. I spend most of my time trying to get these problems solved, and then I take time to get involved in the community to get a chance to learn of more problems. Hell, I have even found issues that no one was willing to bring up that negatively affect how the site is run. Of which I cannot tell you as it would currently be breaching, but rest assured these newer admods, including myself, are not sitting on their hands and doing nothing. We are currently doing everything in our power to find issues and solve them. And I am not saying that I'm the only one that's finding these issues.

The TOS update was not a publicity stunt either. It was updated because our system is so broken. Throughout our different sets of rules, there was a lack of clarity in AVEN's rules, and several admods were having issues with it because it made reports almost impossible and nearly unfair for the members trying to read these conflicting rules. It wasn't because AVEN members saw it as broken, but because admods saw it as hard to understand as they were looking through all of the rules and realized there was a large lack of clarity.

PiF. You may make all of the accusations you like, but please be aware that most of what you know happened either long enough ago to get declassed or back before you got banned on AVEN. There is a lot to it that you don't know, and there has been a lot of new admods added since both of these time periods. Don't make general accusation of all of the admods without knowing them a little better.

Also, from my POV, all of the admods have responded rather well to the changes that I've suggested. Granted, they always make suggestions to change my idea to prevent a further broken system, but I've had no major resistance to change personally.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:14 pm

Faeriefate - you've been a member here since 31 March; PiF was banned from AVEN long before that. How was he to contact you? Now, of course, much of AVEN is closed to him and other banned/non members - how are they to know how to contact you? When PiF says he cares about AVEN, he means it; as do I.

So what are you planning to do with the current discussions re returning eligibility to 6 months and admods having a fixed 2 year service
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby ♥ Steph ♥ » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:41 pm

Tanwen wrote:So what are you planning to do with the current discussions re returning eligibility to 6 months and admods having a fixed 2 year service


Although I'm PT, I haven't given up trying to help navigate Admods. As for returning eligibility to 6 months I personally won't have any influence there.

As for getting some sort of spring-cleaning system into Admods. That's part of my long-term plan to correct and the first 'tests' of it will be occurring next week (There will be a public announcement - since it was removed from the Bi-Weekly bulletin from this week I guess I can't share now? Was going to but I guess its not 'out there'. It was?). If its successful then other admods (who I've already spoke with) will propose it to apply to the backroom in full.

We're trying Tan, we be trying :halo:

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:53 pm

Some fair points faer and I'd like to go through them if I may

In several places in recent posts I've mentioned the newer ones seem to be doing okay..but there is some history here

we have had a shedloads of fresh meat over the years...pardon the pun...All well intentioned but they have almost always failed and left disheartened due to those in the backroom who have made sure it happened that way...I hope the current young guns can address what has been going on for ages and the abuse of a few but enough back there have allowed it to go on far too long..as you know..the majority vote carries how the mods and their actions are seen

Therefore, if you really cared about all of this as much as you seem to act like you do, you'd have sent me a message.

My observations and inputs are not dependent on whether I message you or not...I'll chalk that comment upto a lack of experience and possibly wrong wording that was unintentional on your part...but please do not confuse my occasional politeness to some of the newer mods with sarcastic power trips of assumption on your part....My politeness to you can be as quickly withdrawn as it was given

PM's..I'm always open to pm's...there will be quite a few of the current team who may know this...I've never closed a door on a mod....might want too :D but it always remains open.....that shouldn't be confused with hiding stuff in pm's though that should be in main. I prefer to be clear and visible on matters rather than secretive and hiding

Faer you said this....PiF. You may make all of the accusations you like, but please be aware that most of what you know happened either long enough ago to get declassed or back before you got banned on AVEN. There is a lot to it that you don't know

You say accusations, I say what is actually happening..long ago? the members vote that voted by quite some majority on returning mod qualies back to 6 months was Jan 12 2016- Jan 26 2016

The members vote that voted to put in place elections for the team on a regular basis after a fixed term ...Jan 12 2016 - 26 January 2016

the walls that recently went up around aven.....Mar 20 2016 -29 March 2016 - 02:41 PM

None of those were "long enough ago" the last one closed less than a week ago after only running for 4 days and was implemented upon immediately..the previous 2 less than 12 weeks ago and nothing has been implemented on those two...so you see your assumptions would be incorrect..they are very very recent

I hope you can pull it off..no one else has been able to bring the mods around to being accountable through elections..even when the members asked for it so I'll keep an eye on it if that's okay and hope you, some of the newer mods and the older ones who do genuinely want things to be better..can make it happen

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:18 pm

Tanwen wrote:Faeriefate - you've been a member here since 31 March; PiF was banned from AVEN long before that. How was he to contact you? Now, of course, much of AVEN is closed to him and other banned/non members - how are they to know how to contact you? When PiF says he cares about AVEN, he means it; as do I.

So what are you planning to do with the current discussions re returning eligibility to 6 months and admods having a fixed 2 year service


I wrote earlier in this thread that if someone has a legit criticism of AVEN (that doesn't rely on blatant insults) then to message me. PiF continued reading and replyign to this thread, but my mailbox is still empty. Meaning that they saw it but didn't want to see if I'd change anything (or that's the assumption you get when you offer help but someone doesn't take it).

PiF wrote:Some fair points faer and I'd like to go through them if I may

In several places in recent posts I've mentioned the newer ones seem to be doing okay..but there is some history here

we have had a shedloads of fresh meat over the years...pardon the pun...All well intentioned but they have almost always failed and left disheartened due to those in the backroom who have made sure it happened that way...I hope the current young guns can address what has been going on for ages and the abuse of a few but enough back there have allowed it to go on far too long..as you know..the majority vote carries how the mods and their actions are seen

Therefore, if you really cared about all of this as much as you seem to act like you do, you'd have sent me a message.

My observations and inputs are not dependent on whether I message you or not...I'll chalk that comment upto a lack of experience and possibly wrong wording that was unintentional on your part...but please do not confuse my occasional politeness to some of the newer mods with sarcastic power trips of assumption on your part....My politeness to you can be as quickly withdrawn as it was given

PM's..I'm always open to pm's...there will be quite a few of the current team who may know this...I've never closed a door on a mod....might want too :D but it always remains open.....that shouldn't be confused with hiding stuff in pm's though that should be in main. I prefer to be clear and visible on matters rather than secretive and hiding

Faer you said this....PiF. You may make all of the accusations you like, but please be aware that most of what you know happened either long enough ago to get declassed or back before you got banned on AVEN. There is a lot to it that you don't know

You say accusations, I say what is actually happening..long ago? the members vote that voted by quite some majority on returning mod qualies back to 6 months was Jan 12 2016- Jan 26 2016

The members vote that voted to put in place elections for the team on a regular basis after a fixed term ...Jan 12 2016 - 26 January 2016

the walls that recently went up around aven.....Mar 20 2016 -29 March 2016 - 02:41 PM

None of those were "long enough ago" the last one closed less than a week ago after only running for 4 days and was implemented upon immediately..the previous 2 less than 12 weeks ago and nothing has been implemented on those two...so you see your assumptions would be incorrect..they are very very recent

I hope you can pull it off..no one else has been able to bring the mods around to being accountable through elections..even when the members asked for it so I'll keep an eye on it if that's okay and hope you, some of the newer mods and the older ones who do genuinely want things to be better..can make it happen


Well, from what I've seen in the back room there are a fair share of mods that want to change things and improve AVEN. I can't tell you anything abotu them and this isn't a for certain fact, just my opinion on the matter. Are there a handful of mods that are resisting change and seem to be harder to deal with? Yes, but when you have a group as large as the admods not everyone will agree completely. As far as the assumption that they're abusing anything, though, I'll tell you this.

I got my position because I've had mod experience before this. I stepped down because the admins in that position were abusing the system and I couldn't handle it anymore. When I tried to enact change, they shut me down. They told me pretty much to just keep my head down and do my own work. Even though my own job description has changed since I signed up. all thanks to them. Granted, I wasn't in the position to handle it at the time. Was a a particularly good mod there? No, but I tried and as I said, I wasn't in any position to do much. I stepped down not because I couldn't handle the situation or because I couldn't resist the admins there anymore, but because of my situation irl that prevented me from going against them (long story short I was experiencing a similar situation in real life that I wasn't handling quite well). But since then (I still do frequent the site) the admin saw the situation at the site and kicked out all the staff, replaced them, and things have gotten far better. Do I expect a similar situation on AVEN if things get too out of hand? Most likely not because that site had a lot more legal issues to worry about than AVEN does (ie mods not doing their duties could cause the site itself to be breaking many laws). Regardless, I've handled situations like this before.

From my viewpoint so far, I'm not getting any major resistance from most of the admods. A little bit from a few that are just very frustrated with the harder to handle things, but as a majority, no.

My invitation to a PM is not to reduce visibility. You have every right to hold me accountable. After all, I'm making a lot of promises. However, my offer of a PM is for this reason and this reason alone. To ensure that I see your misgivings. You're unhappy with how AVEN is, and I see that. That's perfectly fine. However, I'm not on as often as some of these admods you see. I don't always have the time. I have odd hours. So, to ensure thai I see what you want me to fix, I asked for PMs. Not to hide anything, btu to make sure that I can see it so that I may work on it. Granted, I've started up a few projects of my own to help improve AVEN, so I can't promise that I'll work on anything right away.

If you're at all concerned throughout our conversations that I'm being secretive, I'll allow you to share with the others what I promise to try to improve. Does that seem fair? And I know you will to, tell everyone what I have promised to work on if I fail to pull through. That's fine. I'm making promises and deserve to be held accountable for them. However, I do still need some sort of system to ensure that I can clearly see what misgivings you want me to try to work on so that we do not risk me missing anything due to the fact that I can not be on for as long as I'd like to.

As for both the walls and the elections, both were run at inopportune times for me, preventing me from really being there when they ran. I wasn't able to be on AVEN and was dealing with real life issues, so I apologize on that matter, but while I'm on I do spend most of my time working out issues that the members suggest rather than just goof around.

I don't know how active you are on AVEN, but I spend no time in the "just for fun" forums rackign up false high post counts playing the number games. Every post I make on there is for the benefit of AVEN and asexuality.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:50 pm

You will have been able to read my resignation thread and the one that triggered it - if you think that is acceptable behaviour by admods towards a vulnerable individual, well, I guess you may be on track to join the 'flog 'em and hang 'em' brigade :( . Do you really think that mass joining by admods on another website simply to target another member here is the kind of behaviour that 'admods are held to a higher standard' demonstrates? That is a rhetorical question by the way but if you do think it acceptable then by all means go ahead and explain why. I agree that the way things were said was insulting but you see, around here we can say what we think without fear of being reported/warned/banned. If you're honest, you'll know full well that had A Pos members done that sort of thing it would have resulted in warns/bans so fast everyone's heads would spin.

You have been here for less than a week and yet PiF should have instantly pm'd you?

Faeriefale - PiF CAN'T be active on AVEN, he's banned - remember??? ;)

*Why does my edit head only appear after I've posted??? :D *
Last edited by Tanwen on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:29 pm

Tanwen wrote:You will have been able to read my resignation thread and the one that triggered it - if you think that is acceptable behaviour by admods then, well, I guess I'll let that go. Do you really think that mass joining by admods on another website simply to target another member here is the kind of behaviour that 'admods are held to a higher standard' demonstrates? That is a rhetorical question by the way but if you do think it acceptable then by all means go ahead and explain why. I agree that the way things were said was insulting but you see, around here we can say what we think without fear of being reported/warned/banned.

You have been here for less than a week and yet PiF should have instantly pm'd you?


Is that how moderators should act? No. I'll be honest and say that it isn't. I myself posted a formal apology on this forum. Regardless of how the other was reacting, we saw a chance to open freely and abused it.

Would you not PM someone that seemed passionate about enacting change and asking people for what they believe should be changed?

Also, I read your resignation thread, and I'll say this. The admods have a history as a whole of not working well together. Honestly, we won't ever all agree. That's all I really can say on the matter. We need to try to find a middle ground better than the past admods have.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:34 pm

I edited after you started posting - I added 'towards a vulnerable individual' - it didn't have much to do with agreeing or not agreeing, it was the total lack of compassion and understanding; where the one instituting the procedures was at the same time pretending to be such a good friend (and still does) to that individual who's the kindest and gentlest of souls.
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:40 pm

Tanwen wrote:I edited after you started posting - I added 'towards a vulnerable individual' - it didn't have much to do with agreeing or not agreeing, it was the total lack of compassion and understanding; where the one instituting the procedures was at the same time pretending to be such a good friend (and still does) to that individual who's the kindest and gentlest of souls.


I know what you meant after I read it. I just don't feel that I'm at liberty to comment for many reasons.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:50 pm

I understand the rules on not breaching - it's so hard sometimes. Doesn't help the 'rules' are so amorphous.
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:55 pm

PiF, I've logged out and viewed as a guest, you can still see this one :D

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1364 ... uidelines/
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:05 am

Okay I'll plough through now I've had my morning coffee

PiF continued reading and replyign to this thread, but my mailbox is still empty. Meaning that they saw it but didn't want to see if I'd change anything (or that's the assumption you get when you offer help but someone doesn't take it).

Would you not PM someone that seemed passionate about enacting change and asking people for what they believe should be changed?

Be carefull here..that is how some of the most stubborn admods started.."unless you deal with me then you are not serious"... you forget I've seen years and years of people like you back there promising to change avens world only to see them not there the following year

As to pm's......like sex, just because you have a mailbox, don't assume that I want to fill it

"but when you have a group as large as the admods not everyone will agree completely." I've been vocal on this, the team have added multiples of sexual based forums within a asexual forum despite those sexual content forums being hugely catered for elsewhere. The result is the team is now at in total around 32?..far too big for a forum that only has around 150-200 regularly posting. They have always been a disorganised bunch at best of times but for some of your more resistant mods..this has been an ideal scenario..the more people=more confusion=no agreement=the status quo remains

My invitation to a PM is not to reduce visibility. You have every right to hold me accountable. After all, I'm making a lot of promises.

Oh I will hold you accountable but I will not place you in the firing line.

Most of what I say is simply common sense..some in the team do not want the best for aven, they want the best for themselves. Traditionally those who have seen that common sense I've said...have often been attacked by the very same team you now work with whilst those people have still been in the team

Look back through declass and even recent attempts at sabotaging ex mods who run in elections now...if you are deemed to be a friend of mine..you are looked upon with suspicion by some in the current team..therefore those that I talk with in pm's, I do so as a friend of which not everything is about aven or the team sometimes it is just general chitter chatter...again..none of the backroom I have talked to have ever offered to breach nor have I asked them too..but that has not stopped those individuals being treated differently by some of the team..who and when I talk to be in private..remains private as much for their protection than mine

There is the other side to it too...I don't know you yet so I don't know if I want to talk to you in a pm...I'm choosy who I let into my pm's :P

what I have seen so far is you saying because I don't pm you that I am not serious about change, the only things I know are from long ago and you don't know how active I am are on AVEN

It's been pointed a few times out I was rather suspiciously banned from aven so I am not able to be active on aven...it was pointed out. The things I was mentioning were infact within the last few weeks and months ( and despite your offer to do things, you yourself admit your were unable to do anything with those) and unless I pm you then I am not serious...I think it would be fair to say as first impressions go..yours has been shit

now we can build on that if you wish too, I'm open to that..but please if this is to improve..do not assume I need validation from you for myself or my inputs..if you feel that...you would be wrong

so having cleared the decks...my inputs are correct. I like the direction you hope to go but I advise caution of seeing that style try and fail at the hands of your own colleagues for many many years..but if you succeed, there will be few happier than I

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:35 am

Tanwen wrote:PiF, I've logged out and viewed as a guest, you can still see this one :D

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1364 ... uidelines/


I just seen this Tan

I'll get the grumpy bit out of the way first :D

What they have done is simply returned it back to what it was, something the members at the time said don't change it from 6 to 3 months and again said in a recent poll.

For those who didn't know...the team has a recruitment issue and last year it reached it's lowest point..we had a number of elections that only had 1 candidate in, some elections that had no one in and one election where we had two candidates but the members chose none of the above

The fix by the mods at the time was not to look at themselves and why no one wanted to join them but more apply a quick fix sticking plaster on a leaking boat...this has been the admods traditional method of application...quick fixes on long term problems done so badly by a knee jerk reaction ...so that always led to the same situation comes around and around to haunt them year on year and sometimes many problems within the same year..temporary solutions are rarely the grounds to build a long term future

Some of us have sought that they apply changes based on member input so an agreed way forward would more likely hold ground than the temporary fixes that took the ground beneath them.

Grump over with...the change will come as a welcome move by many who want to see the team be a building partnership with its members and not the historic them and us that a small section in the backroom wished to keep...even those must realise now it is time to change

It must be wearing on the team to put as much energy into fighting its members and change..and not change for change's sake...but change that is desperately needed and I do feel IF..and this is a very big IF given the teams history..IF they are working forward, then I genuinely do feel they are going in the right direction...they as well as the members will see a better dynamic within aven..so I certianly welcome this first step and those putting in the effort to get this done and trying to keep this mommentum going forward

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:59 am

PiF wrote:Okay I'll plough through now I've had my morning coffee

PiF continued reading and replyign to this thread, but my mailbox is still empty. Meaning that they saw it but didn't want to see if I'd change anything (or that's the assumption you get when you offer help but someone doesn't take it).

Would you not PM someone that seemed passionate about enacting change and asking people for what they believe should be changed?

Be carefull here..that is how some of the most stubborn admods started.."unless you deal with me then you are not serious"... you forget I've seen years and years of people like you back there promising to change avens world only to see them not there the following year

As to pm's......like sex, just because you have a mailbox, don't assume that I want to fill it

"but when you have a group as large as the admods not everyone will agree completely." I've been vocal on this, the team have added multiples of sexual based forums within a asexual forum despite those sexual content forums being hugely catered for elsewhere. The result is the team is now at in total around 32?..far too big for a forum that only has around 150-200 regularly posting. They have always been a disorganised bunch at best of times but for some of your more resistant mods..this has been an ideal scenario..the more people=more confusion=no agreement=the status quo remains

My invitation to a PM is not to reduce visibility. You have every right to hold me accountable. After all, I'm making a lot of promises.

Oh I will hold you accountable but I will not place you in the firing line.

Most of what I say is simply common sense..some in the team do not want the best for aven, they want the best for themselves. Traditionally those who have seen that common sense I've said...have often been attacked by the very same team you now work with whilst those people have still been in the team

Look back through declass and even recent attempts at sabotaging ex mods who run in elections now...if you are deemed to be a friend of mine..you are looked upon with suspicion by some in the current team..therefore those that I talk with in pm's, I do so as a friend of which not everything is about aven or the team sometimes it is just general chitter chatter...again..none of the backroom I have talked to have ever offered to breach nor have I asked them too..but that has not stopped those individuals being treated differently by some of the team..who and when I talk to be in private..remains private as much for their protection than mine

There is the other side to it too...I don't know you yet so I don't know if I want to talk to you in a pm...I'm choosy who I let into my pm's :P

what I have seen so far is you saying because I don't pm you that I am not serious about change, the only things I know are from long ago and you don't know how active I am are on AVEN

It's been pointed a few times out I was rather suspiciously banned from aven so I am not able to be active on aven...it was pointed out. The things I was mentioning were infact within the last few weeks and months ( and despite your offer to do things, you yourself admit your were unable to do anything with those) and unless I pm you then I am not serious...I think it would be fair to say as first impressions go..yours has been shit

now we can build on that if you wish too, I'm open to that..but please if this is to improve..do not assume I need validation from you for myself or my inputs..if you feel that...you would be wrong

so having cleared the decks...my inputs are correct. I like the direction you hope to go but I advise caution of seeing that style try and fail at the hands of your own colleagues for many many years..but if you succeed, there will be few happier than I


Well, the claims are as stated that some admods are hard to work with and will constantly oppose change. I can understand how people get upset with the fact that admods go in promising change and then end up leaving. But the simple matter is this. I've dealt with people that I've worked with that will constantly oppose change before, and it's incredibly frustrating to work that way. When the people that you look up to as being more experienced because they've been there longer constantly go against you, it's disheartening. Furthermore, it's stressful. Especially when you end up dealing with major events in your own life.

Granted considering the fact that I've dealt with it before, I do not completely believe that the situation is as bad as it's made out to be. However, I do still understand the side of those that do believe that it's bad, because it's hard to go in somewhere and always be shut down. It sure doesn't help when you have members blaming all of the admods for the choices of a few. It's also hard to be gone for a few days then come back and realize that the admods made a decision that the members didn't like and you didn't have an input because you were gone.

Some people just really don't have the time to deal with the issues when they're being opposed, so they either leave or get so frustrated that they get kicked out because they've done something that they shouldn't.

But as far as being looked at with suspicion goes, the mods can look at anyone they choose with suspicion, but this only matters if you've done anything to warrant an issue. They'll be harder on someone they don't like/trust, but at the same time that only matters if you do anything in an attempt to get away with it. That much I've learned in dealing with a group in my real life that acted much the same towards me.

But at the end of the day my goal isn't to please you, and I want to make you aware of that. My goal at the end of the day is to improve the experience of AVEN for those that may wan tto join in the future rather than closing them out such as has been done by closing the site to public eyes. If in the end it does benefit you, I'm indifferent to that. I'm just attempting to reach out to people that will say what they want to say without fear of the harsh judgement of admods because the current census for a few of the members is that the admods are running a power trip.