Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

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PiF
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:10 am

It sure doesn't help when you have members blaming all of the admods for the choices of a few.

Knowing that nothing happens unless it is a majority admods decision, you can understand why the majority of admods in recent events can be viewed in such a way

I'm looking forward to see what you personally can achieve

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:28 am

PiF wrote: It sure doesn't help when you have members blaming all of the admods for the choices of a few.

Knowing that nothing happens unless it is a majority admods decision, you can understand why the majority of admods in recent events can be viewed in such a way

I'm looking forward to see what you personally can achieve


As you've said, this is a majority decision. Anything achieved wouldn't be made by just me, but a majority of admods, and I don't pretend like it's just me. My main goal is simply to inform you that just because it's always been the same doesn't mean that it always will be. As long as more admods want change than don't want it, it's entirely possible.

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Tanwen
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:14 am

While the 'old guard' remains in charge then I doubt it will at least changes for the benefit of members...and some of the 'old guard' have been in and out more often than a fiddler's elbow :)
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby KAGU143 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:40 am

I don't know how difficult it would be, but it might be helpful if AVEN could come up with a count of how many members are actually active, versus how many are registered.
I know it will vary from day to day, but my guess, based on the tribal aspects of human nature, is that it isn't more than a few hundred at the most, and that many, if not most, of those will tend to stay in only a few forums. I would be surprised if the number of active members has changed very much from when I was still an admod, and that was several years ago.

I'm curious about this because I agree with PiF. AVEN now has WAAYY too many admods for its number of users. It's no wonder they have a problem finding candidates for open positions. In any organization there will only be about 10% who are willing to commit to active involvement (ie: work) and I suspect that AVEN has pretty much exhausted that group.

We managed to get things done with roughly half as many admods as they have now. Why do they feel that they need so many?
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:20 am

I remember doing this post a little while ago as a general 24 hours

So over the next 24 hours I will show you the figures direct from Aven and the amount of people it will effect

10.53 Apositive time
194 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)
28 members, 158 guests, 8 anonymous users

14.37 Apositive time
233 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)
40 members, 180 guests, 13 anonymous users

Apositive time 15.34
261 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)
44 members, 208 guests, 9 anonymous users

Apositive time 19:48
340 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)
79 members, 249 guests, 12 anonymous users

Apositive time 22.54
346 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)
72 members, 257 guests , 17 anonymous users

Apositive Time 10.15
72 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)
27 members, 142 guests, 3 anonymous users

it seemed to average no more than around 40-ish and never breaking more than 100 people signed in both visible and invisible.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby KAGU143 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:35 am

Members and anonymous members would both be registered, so they could see most of the site, but I have been looking closely at Apositive's guests for the last few days and almost without exception they are web crawlers and bots.
I have decided that the number of actual human guests which visit isn't significant enough to make them worth counting.
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby fluentisono » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:10 pm

Just out of interest, how do you identify a human?

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Ciri » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:46 pm

I'm Nancy's most regular guest. I read multiple times a day even if I don't log in.
You're all dead and I'm your eternal punishment.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby ♥ Steph ♥ » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:49 pm

fluentisono wrote:Just out of interest, how do you identify a human?


Do they have a superiority complex?
If yes, they are human.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:55 pm

Now when you say human

do you mean a grey human? A demi human?, a sapio human?, a autochris human?, a did masturbation cause me to be human etc :lol:

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby CosineTheCat » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:56 pm

To kind of answer activity on AVEN question:

From what I remember seeing we would actively get about 35 new members a day. I said this as an average though (I saw it as high as 63 and as low as the 20s). Honey can testify that depending on the forum a lot of work can be done (Especially in Q&A and Musi). I got a forum that had MAYBE 1-3 actions a week, but I archived a lot. From what I remember seeing there was about 400 active people on AVEN on any day, from members that just used chat to people that only used JFF. It really was just personal choice to people.

I love stats.


And am I human? I know I don't think I am :drool: I'm a Cat.
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:06 pm

I must admit to never having seen 400 on any one day but then I do not check up so much these days...would that be 400 people or 400 log ons with maybe some people multiple logging on at various times? or are you including guests who do not sign on because they are lazy members, non members, spam bots, crawlers etc?

For example right now it is showing this 342 users are online (in the past 15 minutes) 76 members, 251 guests, 15 anonymous users..that would mean only 91 members signed in and 251 people/objects viewing

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Pook
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Pook » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:53 pm

5 years ago AVEN got 20,000 posts a month. Nowadays it gets 45,000 a month.

Also, the Admod team is roughly the same size as it was 5 years ago.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:53 pm

Yes, what success! 20,000 mostly word games a month to 45,000, "let me kill the loneliness and boredom posts," with hardly any quality ontopic or mature discussion. The lonely hearts club is very stronk. Like ox. What a way to measure success: mathematically. Probably the quality decreases with the upsurge in quantity, so keep measuring the quantity!

You know what grows with time also? Cancer tumors. The issue is to grow something worth growing and beneficial, and not just to grow to grow and then hail your alleged victory. In the end all you will grow is a large ogre looking tumor.
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby KAGU143 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:02 pm

Ahh, okay then, Pook. (And thatsa lottsa traffic, I tellzya!)

Have you noticed that the members are assembling into sub-groups which tend to stick together and frequent only a few forums? (Or, is there any way to tell?) I'm just curious.
If they're doing that then AVEN could conceivably have thousands of people online at a time (EEP!) because at that point it would be, in effect, several different forums operating under one name.
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:18 pm

KAGU143 wrote:Ahh, okay then, Pook. (And thatsa lottsa traffic, I tellzya!)

Have you noticed that the members are assembling into sub-groups which tend to stick together and frequent only a few forums? (Or, is there any way to tell?) I'm just curious.
If they're doing that then AVEN could conceivably have thousands of people online at a time (EEP!) because at that point it would be, in effect, several different forums operating under one name.


I'm going to try to answer this question, but Pook will have a more informed answer. I don't think that there's a real way to tell if they frequent only a few other subforums, but there are members forming groups of sorts in AVEN. Not often or large groups, and they might just be coincidental due to the time members can get on or just members with similar views/posting/frequent similar boards styles. I do, however, notice groups that ban together more closely.

There's also a few people that are dating on AVEN. That's a thing. I'm not sure what that really says, but it kinda fits into the group thing a bit.

I don't think that AVEN numbers are in the thousands, but you could give me a number in the hundreds for a day and I'd say, "That makes sense." It's less prominent in the less active boards since 5 posts in a day would be active for then and no posts a day wouldn't seem that odd. But for the more active ones you get so much traffic that it's inconceivable to think that one person could mod it on their own because they are so active (unless that one person just has a lot of time on their hands like some admods.

That is, unless you mean forums as in boards? Like Q&A, PPS, MusiRant, etc. Then in that case, there is most certainly members that ban together and only frequent a few boards, but that can easily be explained by the fact that they're so different. A lot of peopel don't like talkign about politics, so they avoid PPS like the plague, especially around elections get closer. Lots of asexuals can't relate to sexual things, so they avoid those. Some aren't on to have fun, so they don't go on Just For Fun. Some don't like heated discussions, so they avoid Hot Box. People with similar interests will naturally visit similar boards because of the nature of the boards system in AVEN. The'yre just so different that some are unrelatable to other members. So I don't think that really shows how many members we really have.

And of course there's a group tat only sticks to the chat and doesnt' browse the forums... Yeah...

And I don't really know how large you mean when you say sub-groups. I only notice a handful of peopel, but I'm more or less oblivious when it comes to group things

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Pook
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Pook » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:37 pm

KAGU143 wrote:Ahh, okay then, Pook. (And thatsa lottsa traffic, I tellzya!)

Have you noticed that the members are assembling into sub-groups which tend to stick together and frequent only a few forums? (Or, is there any way to tell?) I'm just curious.
If they're doing that then AVEN could conceivably have thousands of people online at a time (EEP!) because at that point it would be, in effect, several different forums operating under one name.


I would say that AVEN probably has a few hundred regulars rather than thousands. There are definitely groups of people who stick to certain forums (or just certain threads in some cases). In JFF and Arcade alone I can think of three major sub-groups that all stick to the same threads.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's like several different forums operating under one name as there is still pretty significant overlap between these groups. It's actually pretty interesting to see how different groups form over time and then dissipate only for new groups to come and take their place.

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Tanwen
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:45 pm

Pook wrote:5 years ago AVEN got 20,000 posts a month. Nowadays it gets 45,000 a month.

Also, the Admod team is roughly the same size as it was 5 years ago.


You have co-mods where there were none before, added 4 Declassification team yet the numbers are roughly the same :lol:

Membership numbers are misleading, after all AVEN is rather like the 'Hotel California' the same goes for the number of posts; it's a matter of quality over quantity - I may seem to have more 'sweets' than I did last week, but they're mostly empty wrappers carefully folded to look as though they contain something :D

AVEN has always had groups of individuals huddled together in parts of the board - you even have chatters who never, or very seldom, visit the board itself. They may make sufficient posts to be able to vote for their favourite chatter but many don't bother to doe even that. They join for the chat room - the message board..what is that????

Out of curiosity, the chat figures aren't included as posts are they? Surely they can't be.
You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

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Pook
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Pook » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:17 pm

No, chat posts aren't included.

Back in 2011 there were 5 Admins, 15 mods and 5 PT
Right now there are 5 Admins, 14 mods, 5 PT and 4 DT

25 vs 28 is not a big difference. Certainly not twice as many.

As for quality vs quantity, that's subjective and besides the point. The question was whether AVEN has the same number of active users as it used to and I provided some data to give insight into that.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:02 pm

Tanwen wrote:
Pook wrote:5 years ago AVEN got 20,000 posts a month. Nowadays it gets 45,000 a month.

Also, the Admod team is roughly the same size as it was 5 years ago.


You have co-mods where there were none before, added 4 Declassification team yet the numbers are roughly the same :lol:

Membership numbers are misleading, after all AVEN is rather like the 'Hotel California' the same goes for the number of posts; it's a matter of quality over quantity - I may seem to have more 'sweets' than I did last week, but they're mostly empty wrappers carefully folded to look as though they contain something :D

AVEN has always had groups of individuals huddled together in parts of the board - you even have chatters who never, or very seldom, visit the board itself. They may make sufficient posts to be able to vote for their favourite chatter but many don't bother to doe even that. They join for the chat room - the message board..what is that????

Out of curiosity, the chat figures aren't included as posts are they? Surely they can't be.


DT don't do anything to enforce rules. They are called the Declass Team, and that's literally what they do. Declass things. They have no participation in actual admod duties. Same goes for PT. Therefore they cannot be included to discern whether the number of admods is making it harder for them to work together. Because they don't work directly with admods. Could admods and DT or PT be friends? Sure! After all, DT does view old admod threads and declass them, so they do get to know the admods a bit better than the average member that doesn't read all of the archives.

My point being, that more PT and DT members doesn't add to the confusion. They simply exist as a separate team not directly affecting the admods. If you want to prove a point in how there's a large amount of team members making everyone confused, then you should only include those team members that contribute to admod things, since that's what we're discussing here, the reliability of admods.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Tanwen » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:16 pm

I'm very well aware that the PT do not take part in general board matters - I was there when the whole issue blew up - when the PT was created and there weren't any rules; we had to work them out. Anyway, did I mention the PT at all??? Now in theory, the DT are not supposed to take part in mod issues but do you recall the 'what if' question in the election thread? I was in the 'backroom' and AVEN in general long enough to know that lines get blurred, that things don't always work out as originally planned. However, there is still the issue of the co-mods - still an extra two bodies, the DT are there because the mods refused to do declassification. :)

Faerie, please don't post in such a condescending fashion, it doesn't go down well and I've been very restrained in my response.

Edit: I apologise to Faerie, I didn't read Pook's post above yours and you were responding to that one, not mine. Pook shoudl have known better than to include either PT or DT, they should know better.
Last edited by Tanwen on Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:37 pm

I found these two threads interesting in not only mod level's but the intial hope for what a mod should be

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/5759 ... minations/

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/5968 ... nners-are/

Faer your comment is partially right and wrong on the dt and pt..Unless something has changed with the pt and unless the dt was drafted differently upon entry...the dt and pt can see the admods room and whilst they are not allowed to vote on tos application issues...they can and do? have inputs into matters including their own perceptions/opinions and wishes..therefore it would be wrong to say the pt and dt have no input

Perhaps those who see a them as seperate entities maybe part of the problem? You stay in your area and you stay in your area whilst we stay in our area...interestingly in your reply I never once saw one comment along the lines of, we all have a different function but remain part of the backroom that makes aven tick in our own but collective way but still as a cohesive unit

Perhaps that lack of a collective replaced by seperatism may have at times caused the admods go ahead with something that could have caused pain for so many members that could have been avoided if the decision was more based on the backroom collective rather than the admods sending out signals this is nothing to do with you to the dt and pt?

Arch..I will declare my reasons.... but for now, would you say that aven had a substantial spike after 2011?

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Pook » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:51 am

I don't have access to the raw data anymore so I couldn't tell you.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby faeriefate » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:01 am

PiF wrote:I found these two threads interesting in not only mod level's but the intial hope for what a mod should be

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/5759 ... minations/

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/5968 ... nners-are/

Faer your comment is partially right and wrong on the dt and pt..Unless something has changed with the pt and unless the dt was drafted differently upon entry...the dt and pt can see the admods room and whilst they are not allowed to vote on tos application issues...they can and do? have inputs into matters including their own perceptions/opinions and wishes..therefore it would be wrong to say the pt and dt have no input

Perhaps those who see a them as seperate entities maybe part of the problem? You stay in your area and you stay in your area whilst we stay in our area...interestingly in your reply I never once saw one comment along the lines of, we all have a different function but remain part of the backroom that makes aven tick in our own but collective way but still as a cohesive unit

Perhaps that lack of a collective replaced by seperatism may have at times caused the admods go ahead with something that could have caused pain for so many members that could have been avoided if the decision was more based on the backroom collective rather than the admods sending out signals this is nothing to do with you to the dt and pt?

Arch..I will declare my reasons.... but for now, would you say that aven had a substantial spike after 2011?


The PT and DT are different than the admod team and as such are not allowed to take part in the participate in disciplinary actions and what affects them. The DT is required to see the backroom because they need access to the threads that they must declass. PT may see the back room because there is required to be some amount of communication if someone messages an admod regarding research requests and to allow the admods to know which research requests are approved. However, PT and DT are not allowed to participate in admod duties. The duties that the site states that each job does is ALL that they are allowed to do, and honestly I'd have something to say about it if it weren't because the peopel voting on DT and PT deserve the right to know if these people had some sway in the backroom as it is not what they are being elected for.

The reason why my comment did not state "You stay in your area and we stay in our area" is because of the minor amounts of overlap. The PT is in charge of approving research requests and the boards that said research threads are posted (I don't know which one that is because the site is down). The overlap is not in doing each others duties, but in instances where someone may message a mod about a PT or DT thing or a mod found someone posting research requests in one of the the moderators' boards which is never approved of as PT are in charge of the only board that it is allowed on or just to confirm that it belongs in PT's board. All overlap involved though are in areas in which everyone is still doing their duties as that is what members voted on them to do.

All decisions are made by a collective unit, but that does not mean that all of the admods agree with the decisions. As a rule, I accept majority vote in these circumstances. I cannot speak for how that other admods think about it, though.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:00 am

I was asking Arch because you mentioned the post counts and you seem to say they have doubled within the last 5 years..in line with my 2011 request

using what you said, it would be fair to say there has been a huge spike since 2011 (or the last 5 years as you put it)....guess which year the grey forum started :D

I would suggest that the Sexual Identity and Gender Network (SIGN) that aven has become since the creation of the grey arena, has more to do with that than full time asexuals suddenly exploding onto the scene. Asexuality hasn't doubled but sexuals claiming to be has. That would go back to quantity vs quality comments made earlier

Faer I am pretty sure I have seen pt have opinions on conduct issues within declass's.. I seem to recollect a couple where Michael acknowledged he was not part of the admods or the vote but felt the matter at hand warranted a non admod input

I even recollect a time when the pt were suggested that they be the appeals board rather than the admods who had just issued the warning/ban

i do understand majority rule....I just hope we are moving from a crap majority to a productive and positive one

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby CosineTheCat » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:03 am

Thras, a community isn't allowed?

You have said that you get your social interaction else where, but a lot of people enjoy the social interaction they get from playing games, and chatting from other people that can identify together on something that they might feel they have to hide elsewhere. Just because you do not feel the need for that interaction, does not mean you should belittle others that enjoy it. Many people that come to AVEN look for answers, they don't know what to think and are most of all scared. Look through WL or Q&A; you'll see all sorts of people from different backgrounds and walks of life. I'm kind of going to echo what Steph said earlier, AVEN is a place people go to feel accepted, it's very basic and elementary. Not a lot of people there are for heavy debates on topic. I know that most of the heavy debating or mature conversations I have, I do so with friends I've made on AVEN.

Oh, cancer tumor reference. As someone studying biomedical, that's an interesting reference to make. Anyways, all I have to say is that I'll never change your mind on what AVEN means to people. Nor will I for any of you that have a dislike of AVEN. I can see your side of it, because I have my own opinions on AVEN too, but don't underestimate the power of feeling accepted for the first time in a long time.

PiF, as a member of PT, I can tell you I've never voted on things that are not related to me. Most of the time if it is not clear, PT and DT ask if we're suppose to. There are some things that we're allowed to do. Mic sometimes posts his opinion due to him being a member of the BoD, and normally it relates to heated topics that admods themselves are split on.
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:23 am

Cose, I never said the pt vote on admod things??

I would agree aven is a social interaction site but a social interaction that happens to have asexuality in it's pr package blurb and little more. As a result the sexual identities have largely taken over making it neither the most accepting of full time asexuals or the best standard bearer for asexuality

I think some have found it far too easy to forget the census results that back up many identifying as asexual are not full time asexuals but instead are mostly teen white girls in america whilst at college..if that is what aven is accepting as asexuality..then it might explain the issues around asexuality and aven

Cose you said....but don't underestimate the power of feeling accepted for the first time in a long time

I would politely put to you...don't under estimate the power of feelings when going into the largest asexual forum on the internet ...and finding it's full of sexuals creating pretend labels whilst looking for I am a gold star asexual badge...it can be quite a shock and still feeling like you still have not found a home for yourself as an asexual....The balance is out of kilta and if your genuinely going to be a home for asexuals..then that imbalance needs to be addressed

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:07 am

Blimey one of those days you think will never happen, happened today

despite me and them disagreeing between sexual attraction and desire definitions..I actually find myself agreeing today with the walking silly label directory..Star Bit

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1357 ... -spectrum/

I think it goes to show that you can say no you are not asexual without saying no you are not asexual but more this is what asexuality is...and this is what it isn't.

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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby Ciri » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:57 pm

If you're telling us PT have no discussion or influence in disciplinary matter, you're talking bollocks.

They don't have a vote but they can still discuss. *points to Declass*
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Re: Remind me Never EVER look at AVEN again!

Postby PiF » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:10 am

Hey Arch...according to this, your not a mod :lol: http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/1182 ... nd-admins/

I suspect however, that you have left and comeback so many times that no one can keep up :D

You also will be the first mod in avens history that wiil require two lines for their dates :clap: