you aren't going to trick me into leaving

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michaels
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you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby michaels » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:46 pm

At this point it's mostly a matter of obstinacy, because I no longer derive any benefit from remaining here. But the sly and underhanded have so often tricked me into taking responsibility for THEIR choices, which they should take responsibility for themselves, that I have to make a stand at some point or be totally obliterated. What happened on AVEN is NOT going to happen here. Unless Nancy explicitly asks me to leave, I'm staying despite any efforts you make to manipulate me into leaving.

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FalconEagle
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby FalconEagle » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:05 pm

I obviously don't check in here often enough, I am quite clearly missing something here.......... O_o

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby rather_drink_tea » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:49 pm

I second Falcon Eagle. I kind of come in here to lurk a bit and whatnot and I've only been on AVEN for...well about 8 or 9 months now.

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fridayoak
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby fridayoak » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:12 pm

Well seeing as the only recent posts I can find are the ones about schizophrenia then I have to assume you're are at least in part referring to me Michaels? I can't for the life of me see why you got so worked up by it though. Seems like you have some paranoid delusions, maybe you should see your doctor about this?

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Olivier
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby Olivier » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:12 pm

I'll take some responsibility. In a discussion about a month ago about why Apositive was so quiet, I was blunt in pointing out that is was posts of michael's similar to the one at the head of this thread, and the number of them, that made Apositive a less enjoyable place to hang out for me.

And now, I've had the temerity to disagree with michael on another thread, while calling him out on some of his paranoid bullshit accusations.

So now, it would seem, I'm part of a sly and underhanded plot to make michael take responsibility for my choices, so that he'll be tricked into leaving Apositive. Or something. I can't honestly say that I understand michael's particular point here.

I don't really care, because (1) I'm going to keep calling a spade a spade, no matter how hysterical michael gets, and (2) michael is going to remain paranoid, no matter how much people point out his paranoia to him. It's no point even suggesting he get help, as in michael's mind, that's just the sort of thing a conspirator would say. I know how I'd deal with a visitor to my house who behaved as michael does, but this ain't my house.

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby PiF » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:24 am

I did feel after the honest opinions had happened that things had moved onwards into general discussions and had calmed down a bit?

Puzzled as to what changed that? Although having now read a bit more of the boards I see this thread was posted the very next day after the schitzophrenia one ?

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Olivier
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby Olivier » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:20 pm

PiF wrote:I did feel after the honest opinions had happened that things had moved onwards into general discussions and had calmed down a bit?

Yeah, I was surprised to see this pop up again. Well, maybe "surprised" isn't quite the right word...

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disparity
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby disparity » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:13 am

I haven't logged in for quite a lot of time, either, and it was a very unpleasant surprise, to say the least, to find such threads as this.... I believe that the administrators really should take some steps to keep this site free of rudeness.
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KAGU143
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby KAGU143 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:54 am

For heavy-handed admods, endless politically correct rules, and an imaginary safe space (which is nothing of the sort!) AVEN should probably be one's primary asexual website.

Here at Apositive, I don't ban people for being abrasive in their speech, or for having opinions that others dislike. I will sometimes, on occasion, PM them, and I will edit or remove posts that are completely over the top.
Michael Smoker had some uncomfortable experiences at AVEN and he remembers them as they are filtered through his own perceptions. We all do this.
I agree that his opinions do not quite reflect the reality of the situation at AVEN, but that does not invalidate them. He is entitled to his own opinions and I don't think that calling him a paranoid accomplishes anything.

Here's a thought: Suppose that a person really IS a full-blown, legitimately diagnosed, paranoid schizophrenic? (Not saying that Michael is, but "what if")
Would you accost a mentally ill person in a public place and start shouting accusations at them and pointing out their illlness to everybody in sight?
What would you hope to accomplish by doing this?
Do you think that public humiliation could somehow make them stop being mentally ill?

Does this sort of behavior say more about the accused or about the acccuser?
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby fridayoak » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:49 am

Wait what? I was referring to the schizophrenic thread that he started, called "WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?" (about a guy he knows who is schizophrenic which he asked for opinions on and then got all rude to people who gave them). This current thread was started the next day by him as a result of him apparently not liking the (fairly innocuous) replies he got and accusing people of all sorts of stuff that doesn't even make any sense.

Have you even read that thread Nancy?

So he was the initial "accuser" as you put it, so I don't why you are trying to turn it around.

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby PiF » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:13 pm

Blimey this will be a first..me choosing to be carefull with my words :silence: ..undoutedly i will start off pc, share the love, we are all equal, world peace but apologise now for when reality comes in and some real world realities come through

KAGU143 wrote:Michael Smoker had some uncomfortable experiences at AVEN and he remembers them as they are filtered through his own perceptions. We all do this. I agree that his opinions do not quite reflect the reality of the situation at AVEN, but that does not invalidate them. He is entitled to his own opinions and I don't think that calling him a paranoid accomplishes anything.


totally agree that michael thinks what happened actually happened..however for some of us who were there... what actually happened and what michael thinks what happened.. are two completely different things..but as you point out michael believes what he believes and is entitled to do that..untill he throws them around for justification as to what he does then spits out everyone is against him which is not the case

KAGU143 wrote:Here's a thought: Suppose that a person really IS a full-blown, legitimately diagnosed, paranoid schizophrenic? (Not saying that Michael is


we all know michael is because he has at some length public displayed and announced his paranioal schitzphrenia..but lets go with the question

KAGU143 wrote: but "what if")
Would you accost a mentally ill person in a public place and start shouting accusations at them and pointing out their illlness to everybody in sight?


in a public place?..like the internet you mean?

i think in the real world most would avoid people with those extreme conditions such as micheal like the plague ..mostly because of not knowing how to interact with someone who see's daggers in every word..as is the case of apositive..a few have been staying away rather than say something and/or then be accused of everything from parachuting in to stalking in an asexual hit squad :hmph: ..

i don't feel michaels illness is largely mentioned KA until his symptoms start to become clear and have a very negative impact not only on him but others also

We also do have to have some honesty here..this is a asexual site and yes at some times all of us have had mental health issues where some sympathy and understanding would be great..but..when it comes to extreme cases of paranoid dillusional schitzophrenia..is an asexual forum the best place for that???..I suspect whilst wishing to help and hope the person keeps well, many of us nor the site are equipped to deal with it

how many of us have fought through trauma to only then try and stay on an even keel and some demanding soul sucking person has totally wiped out those steps forward?

Michael has clear issues that may highlight his personal situation where even some might ask if those are contributary to his current life status and has confused with no one wishing to be around him with asexuality..who knows..given his schitzophrenia would michael even know?

it's clear however michael has issues and they are quite extreme..is anyone here a qualified phsyciatrist who specializes in schitzophrenia? i very much doubt it at all..

apositive will from time to time come across such issues and such personalities and in general i feel it does give sympathy out..however that daily drip feed has an end to which most i would feel would say..this is pissing me off and dragging me down..whats the point of going into that forum if it's that draining?

so..some have stayed away..seeing more so if someone dares say anything then the ..ooo your all against michael stance ..in truth it could be john boy, billy bob or even napolean..there is only so much people can take before there is a consequence

as to the reason for this thread..i suspect with the paranoia that michael has he was hoping for a rally of poor him poor him lets all exscuse him ruining the forum..or maybe some have humoured him long enough that by doing so they have enabled this schitzophrenia to carry on within this forum and possibly even getting worse?? ..

instead of saying people are against michael perhaps the real question should be..have some pampered to him to allow the paranoia and schitzophrenia to escalate by enabling him to do so? in that respect some may have unwittingly..allowed something to escalate that was avoidable?

KAGU143 wrote:Does this sort of behavior say more about the accused or about the acccuser?


what is says KA for me ..is that for much of michaels needs..apositive is the wrong forum given he needs more help mentally than a asexual website can offer..pure and simple

I wish him well and hope he can face and defeat the demons within him..if not then i hope he seeks help in the right places
Last edited by PiF on Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Olivier
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby Olivier » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:35 pm

KAGU143 wrote:Would you accost a mentally ill person in a public place and start shouting accusations at them and pointing out their illlness to everybody in sight?
What would you hope to accomplish by doing this?
Do you think that public humiliation could somehow make them stop being mentally ill?

Does this sort of behavior say more about the accused or about the acccuser?

OK. as someone who has labelled michael's posts as "paranoid bullshit" I feel this is at least partly directed at me, so I'll attempt an explanation.

Firstly, I try to always reserve such descriptions for the words, not the person. I'm not calling michael paranoid, I'm calling his posts paranoid bullshit. It's a subtle difference, but important, because I don't know michael, but his words are right there to be seen for what they undoubtedly are.

If we're going to make analogies to the real world, internet forums are much like the pubs and cafes where groups hang out. If my favourite hangout became dominated by someone with aggressive paranoia, then as PiF says, I'd avoid it - find a new place to hang out - albeit reluctantly. If I really liked the place, I'd check in every month or so to see if it had gone back to it's pleasant ways. This is, in fact exactly what I did for a long time at Apositive. I came, read, decided it hadn't gone back to be an inviting hangout, and left again in silence. Until one day I came, read, and saw a thread asking "why is it so quiet around here?" I gave my 2 cents worth, and was, with others, encouraged to stick around and change the atmosphere rather than just leave and complain that there was no atmosphere.

As PiF points out, that's involved a certain amount of hard work - copping ridiculous accusations, and the rather less than genial task of penning posts like this one - that take the fun out of being here.

I'm not trying to run michael out of here on a rail - but I'm trying to get him to understand the effect he has on those he shares a space with. It may, admittedly, be a futile task. In the real world, I know many people who work in the mental health field and would have no difficulty organising some help or support for someone who so obviously could benefit from it. But I can't do that for michael, only encourage him, like others have, to make better use of whatever resources he has available.

I'm not calling out his paranoia to humiliate him. I'm not starting threads saying "Michael is paranoid, get rid of him". I'm not posting offensive jokes. I'm not making derogatory remarks about the mentally ill in general. All I'm doing is responding to paranoid bullshit with "Don't try that with me." and "You need to be aware that you're doing this, and you yourself would benefit from recognising that and changing your behaviour". That is all I can do thanks to anonymity and distance.

Or I could go back to spending the little time I spend here elsewhere again. I'm actually tossing about some ideas about the boundaries between the (an)erotic and the (a)sexual that I thought I'd bounce off some people who get the sort of concepts I'm thinking about - the sort of thread that once would have gone perfectly here, but I'll probably start it on AVEN, because there are some people active there whose input I'd value, and here, well, at the moment I guess it would probably get very few replies.

To michael, I'll just say this:

you have a certain posting style that is all your own, and for which you alone are responsible. People feel attacked by your accusations, and they defend themselves. I'm not sure you can see that, but please take it as a sincere observation. You act in a similar way around many people, and so there's a pattern to their defensiveness. While you seem to interpret this as evidence of a conspiracy, it seems to others no more than the simple fact that consistent patterns of behaviour get consistent types of responses. When you accuse others of conspiring with those they don't even know, a second cycle of defensiveness emerges (no more than people saying "there is no conspiracy - I don't even know these people") and again you treat the fact that there's a pattern to these responses as evidence of even deeper conspiracy and cover-up. And so it goes, escalating at every turn around the cycle.

It's a cycle that only you can break. I mean that. There is literally no behaviour on the part of anyone else that can break it if you treat sincere denial of conspiracy as evidence of conspiracy. It's up to you. Either man up and commit to breaking this cycle here, or get help. The first step is to not treat those who point out your behaviour as attacking you, but merely commenting on your behaviour, which you have to take responsibility for and, hopefully, can change. If you don't change your patterns of behaviour, then you'll get the same sorts of responses you're getting now no matter where you are, and you'll feel dragged down by it all. But it's not going to magically change - you have to change what's causing it.

Peace,
Olivier.

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KAGU143
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby KAGU143 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:16 pm

Oy ...
First, the easy one: fridayoak. I wasn't really addressing those comments toward you - sorry if it seemed that way. (And yes, I did read that other thread. I read all new comments, and that entire thread is fairly new. I also commented in it.)

Pif and Olivier, I understand where you are both coming from and I appreciate the effort that you both put into trying to respond in a measured fashion. I'm not going to pick apart posts and respond to small bits out of context.
I guess the thing that is hard for me to understand is why so many people seem to be unable or unwilling to forgive each others' faults. It's not like we all have to live together under one roof. We are sharing a message board - nothing more - and I am reasonably certain that nobody here is perfect. I know that I'm not.

I don't think that choosing not to dwell on someone's faults is the same thing as excusing them or denying that they exist.
Egads, I hate to sound religious, because I'm definitely not, but that bit about forgiving others as you would like to be forgiven ... ?
Yeah. I really do believe that. 'Not as any sort of docrine, but just as a survival strategy. Call it kharma, or whatever you want.

We are all adults, here. Can we try to exercise the tolerance and wisdom that adulthood is supposed to bring?
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Olivier
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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby Olivier » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:35 pm

I'll admit I have a fault that's not helping here. When someone says to me "You're part of a plot to follow me around the internet harassing me." or "You're friends with a repulsive bigot." or "You're an activist who wants to use AVEN to boost their personal power at the expense of true asexuals." or "You're colluding in a political plot against me." or "You're abusing me by calling those statements abusive." then my poor impulse control leads me to say "No, I'm not." or after a while "Knock it off." or "I don't much enjoy spaces where these things happen." or even "People who keep making unfounded accusations against me piss me off."

My poor impulse control also led me to hit Submit on this post. So sue me. (At least I had enough impulse control to delete the other paragraph I'd typed ;))

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby Dargon » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:41 pm

Ok, haven't read through the whole thing yet (will do later), but seeing as the admins and moderators were called out, and seeing as I happen to be one of those, I figured I'd say a quick piece. I would have chimed in earlier, but life has me busy, and I cannot check in every day.

Michael's views are often not in line with those of other members, and he can get quite abrasive when other disagree. However he tends to be civil most of the time here. Furthermore, I was not at AVEN during his time there, so I only know what little I have heard of the goings on there, and as the saying goes, there are three sides to every story. So I decided to give micheal the benefit of the doubt.

I'd perhaps be inclined to be a little more heavy-handed with michael, considering his haste to anger and tendency to see others as being after him, if I hadn't also seen numerous unprovoked batings and outright insults directed at him.

So, in the end, I've seen quite a number of cases where both parties were in the wrong. So it's either play the nanny and put both parties in time out, or permit both parties to resolve their differences or go about their ways like adults.

I'll weigh in further on this tomorrow after I've read the above posts in detail rather than having just skimmed. For now I am going to go to bed.

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby PiF » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:24 am

i take it now would not be a good time to ask cafe press to see if they will print me a t shirt with ..aven asexual hit squad member parachuting in...on it? :lol:

michael thinks it's an attack on him..it truly isn't..some of his posts i've enjoyed reading.. but michaels case highlights how we are so woefully equipped when those with a serious mental health issue comes onto the boards..we are after all an asexual forum and not a severe mental health forum

in aven those seeking attention and support that way often move on being realising they are a very small fish in a big pond and so tend to find a very small pond in which to be a big fish in to feed the need for attention

why is this a problem in apositive and not aven..simply really..in such a small forum the impact is ten fold

i wish i could press a button and make it alright for everyone but there does need to be some honesty here...the more we allow it..are we showing care and considering it..or are we actually enabling it?..who ever it is

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby michaels » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:13 am

[quote="Dargon"I'd perhaps be inclined to be a little more heavy-handed with michael, considering his haste to anger and tendency to see others as being after him, if I hadn't also seen numerous unprovoked batings and outright insults directed at him.[/quote]

You can add all the knee-jerk complaints about the mentally ill to your list, Dargon.

Sure, people are couching their statements in a tone of concern, but the underlying message is that they don't want that yucky crazy person among them, because "who knows what he might do." It's a rhetorical device pioneered by feminists and now used by everyone from the Tea Party to the anarchists: using a nurturing tone to conceal hostility.

Just for the record, the guy I was referring to in my other thread is not me but a fellow named Christopher who posted something on a schizophrenia discussion board. The fact that people jumped to the conclusion that there's some connection between the two sets of posts is just another sign of the high level of prejudice about the mentally ill that is prevalent in society. If I were a black man who posted a message about another black man and then posted a totally separate message about racism against me, and people reacted by linking the two posts, you know what everyone's reaction would be. But since I have a mental health diagnosis it's considered perfectly okay.

My basic message is: I'm not going to be tricked into leaving here. If anyone is not trying to trick me into it, then that statement does not apply to them and they can ignore it. If they are, then I'm just letting them know that their efforts will be fruitless.

EDIT: Everyone who has contributed to this thread read the post about my mother dying on November 1, 2011, but none of them thought to connect THAT to what I said in my original post because they wouldn't be able to use it to marginalize me. Yeah, real nurturing people they are. :p

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby Olivier » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:31 am

Michael, once again you're wrapping personal attacks in a claim of victimhood.

People linked the posts because this post, about people trying to trick you into leaving, is about how you struggle to get on with others on this board, and the other, a day previously (on a board not swamped with other activity) contained a you struggling to get on with others on this board.

Nobody has linked it to the thread on your mother's passing, as there is no relevant connection.

You've made the accusation that people (especially those that also post on AVEN) are trying to trick you into leaving before. There aren't that many people here, so those that fit your AVEN criteria who have interacted with you immediately before you post a thread like this have reason to believe it's a reference to that immediately prior interaction. That's how conversations go.

Using your racism example: if you were black and posted what you believed to be an example of racism, and other posters replied that they didn't see the racism in your example, then if you started about how the racists here weren't going to drive you out, then I think the logical conclusion to draw would be that you thought others here were racist on the grounds that they found acceptable behaviour that you found racist (thread 1), and that you were asserting that such racism (as you saw it) would not force you out of the forum (thread 2).

Which is exactly your overt reaction here. You see replies in your thread on Christopher as (to you) tolerating the the human rights abuse of a schizophrenic, and you've started a thread saying that the people who posted in this thread (and the first one) are trying to marginalise the mentally ill, and you won't let them.

While you are free to interpret this thread as an attack on you, you may want to ponder who started this thread.

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby fridayoak » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:51 pm

Michael it seems you want to have your cake and eat it too (which the mods are quite happy to let you indulge in, I guess with rose-tinted spetacles as you have been a (or maybe the) regular poster on this board for a long-time by the looks of it). You quite clearly used this thread as a reaction to the other thread as not only was it the next day but the language used was exactly the same "But the sly and underhanded have tricked me into taking responsibility for THEIR choices, which they should take responsibility for themselves" in both threads.

So don't play dumb, you rub people up the wrong way in your "abrasive" posting style and then when people reply you react like a spoiled brat just for merely disagreeing with you or offering a different angle. I only had vague memories of you from AVEN and earlier on this site as I hardly came on either in 2011 so I don't know your back story but if you don't change your style no-one will want to post on here as why reply to a thread if you feel you are going to get attacked? I mean I can fight fire with fire but I can't be bothered to do that everytime I wanna post on here so I'd rather not bother.

I'd never thought I'd say this but looks like I'll have to go to AVEN for a mature conversation :lol:

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby Dargon » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:18 pm

Okay, I've read through, here's what I have to say.

With regards to moderating, my style is much in line with Greybird's; we're all adults here, I'd rather we be able to deal with these things like adults rather than shutting down every little disagreement "for moderator review" in order to facilitate a so-called "safe place." Reminds me of the part of The Simpsons TreeHouse of Horrors where Ned Flanders takes over the world and forces everyone to be happy.

That being said, I'm going to call it like I see it, no sugar coating.

As I stated earlier, michael is abrasive at best whenever someone disagrees with hm. Furthermore, I've seen the accusations he places upon others regarding them trying to run him off. At risk of sounding rude, some of the more comical ones were accusation of following him over from AVEN lobbied against Apositive members who have been at least semi-active members here longer than he has. I've bared witness to Oliver's list of grievances; such attacks seem to have been the response for merely disagreeing with something michael holds dear. I've even been at the receiving end of his flack for disagreeing with an opinion he strongly holds.

At the same time, some of the responses back at michael have been unkind, and as I have stated, I've even seen some out-of-the-blue unprovoked attacks.

To michael: I do not believe anyone here is trying to "trick" you into leaving. As best as I can tell, they are just telling you how they perceive your actions.

Now what he have going here seems to be a pretty good dialogue discussing this, everyone giving their opinions rather civilly. I hope to see this continue until a resolution is met.

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby michaels » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:58 am

Dargon wrote:To michael: I do not believe anyone here is trying to "trick" you into leaving.


Well, then there was no need for them to respond to my original post in this thread, as that post clearly doesn't apply to them. The fact that they responded indicates a guilty conscience. I never named names. They named themselves. And their sophistries and rhetoric are transparent to me, even if they aren't to you.

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby PiF » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:36 am

Is there anyway of closing this thread now seeing as though everyone has had thier say

otherwise it just looks like some are taunting the dillusional and paranoid... and I don't think Michael deserves that

so could we?

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Re: you aren't going to trick me into leaving

Postby KAGU143 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:32 am

I am hesitant about closing threads since my moderating style is more of the "hands off" variety, however I am inclined to agree that this particular thread has run its course.

Essentially, the bottom line is that nobody is currently trying to run anybody off from Apositive, and if anybody should try to do so in the future it will be dealt with.

Dissenting opinions are welcomed here as long as they are expressed in a civil manner. Personal attacks are frowned upon - HOWEVER - we are all grownups, here.

The poor moderators at AVEN are often little more than playground monitors, forced to listen to one whiny complaint after another:
"But So-and-So STARTED it! Waaahhhh!!! That's not fair!! They should be punished!! Right NOW!! And all of my friends think so, too, and we're going to make a poll to prove it!"

Thank goodness this isn't AVEN. *sigh of relief* Things are different here.

This thread can go to sleep now.
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