ceremonial occultism

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michaels
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ceremonial occultism

Postby michaels » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:30 am

I classify most branches of Christianity, Islam and Judaism as "ceremonial occultism." The "ceremonial" part refers to the fact that the rituals of those religions don't involve the performance of active magick. They are, however, still very much occult. Christians pretend to eat human flesh and drink human blood every Sunday, and that's a comic-book version of occultism if I ever saw one. Wiccan rituals, for example, are nowhere near as nasty.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby KAGU143 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:15 am

The primitive origins that are behind modern-day Christianity were very bloody indeed. Since we have Christian members, though, I don't want to dwell on them in too much detail. The switch from animal sacrifice to symbolic sacrifice was, at least, a step in the right direction.

My current disdain is reserved for what I have recently started calling the "godless religions" because they (several of them) consist of belief systems that disregards easily proven factual data - in other words they are, for all practical purposes, faith-based. Their adherents often choose to look upon "non-believers" as ignorant, unenlightened, or, in some cases, actually inferior in some subtle fashion.

Examples include: almost any "ism," like racism, veganism, liberalism, conservatism and etc, etc.
It is interesting to compare their behavior with that of any evangelical church group. They are quite willing to accept converts who are willing to see the error of their former ways.

(I have to confess, my current focus on this topic has been strongly influenced by my disgust with the rednecked, right-wing conservatism which has infected most of the members of my profession. I want to knock some heads together! Seriously!)
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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby Dargon » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:55 am

With regards to communion, that's a rather interesting tradition. For most denominations I am familiar with, communion is entirely symbolic (albeit I still find it a bit weird). However, in Catholicism, there is the belief in transubstantiation, wherein after consumption, the wine and wafer do transform into the literal blood and body of Christ. That's quite creepy in my opinion.

When it comes to ritual and ceremony, Catholics take the cake there. Almost the entire Catholic service is composed of this ritual, followed by that ritual, with minimal variance.

I'll not go further, as my ex-Christan godless self has some rather unpleasant things to say about Christianity (and religion in general, and the dogmatic "ists" Greybird mentions for that matter)), and I'd rather not step on those toes unless given reason to.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby michaels » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:19 am

This is kind of thread creep, but, Nancy, what you might be referring to is the splintering and fragmenting of society into countless special interests. The cohesion of the whole has disappeared ever since the undreamed-of level of success of the feminists made it clear that there is only one way to get things done: crave power, practise sophistry, be fanatical, and focus all your strength on winning arguments at any cost. The conservatives you complain about have simply borrowed longstanding feminist techniques and are using them for their own purposes. It's sort of like a world in which Enron did not implode and every company on earth started imitating Enron, except on a public action rather than business level.

EDIT: It should be noted that splintering is a universal outcome of fanaticism. Note the term "splinter group."

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby Olivier » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:16 pm

I'm going to hold my tongue, other than to say that it's odd to me that someone could characterise pre-feminist America, where 50% of the population were denied opportunities routinely granted to the other 50% as "cohesive", and the expansion of equal opportunity as a breakdown of cohesiveness. It's like saying that the Civil Rights Act splintered the pre-Act cohesiveness of the South, where everyone knew their place and stuck to it.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby michaels » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:01 am

I wasn't referring to the current domination of society by women, and wasn't particularly talking about the special privileges and unfair advantages that women enjoy over men today. All I said is that the _techniques_ employed by the feminists caused undreamed-of success in the creation of a female supremacist society, so every other activist group began using the same techniques. When they were similarly successful, people began to realize that the only way to get what you want in today's society is to splinter society even further into even more special interest groups and pursue narrow self-seeking interests. So it's not the feminists' activity itself that caused loss of cohesiveness, nor was what they were fighting (female supremacy behind the scenes rather than openly) a particularly noble example of how a society should be run. But today's female supremacist society is hardly better, and has the further disadvantage of being totally splintered into special interests.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby PiF » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:57 am

I don't think these days we actually have many true feminists

most of what I have seen are intelligent degree syke qualified women trying to sell books so use it to slate men off to promote the sale

or just angry women who want to blame someone else for thier own shit decisions and men are the easy targets

the real feminists that I have seen have asked one simple request..to be treated equal

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby KAGU143 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:10 pm

I think that is the difference between feminism - which should be about equality for BOTH sexes - and misandry, which is about dislike for men.

I think we should start a new movement.
How about humanism?

Misanthropists, misandrists and misogynists need not apply.
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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby flergalwit » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:35 am

Humanism (the movement) already exists and comes with its own set of problems...

Feminism is a mixed bag, and I think that's all one can fairly say. I'm not going to claim that women have complete equality in the West and that a Western femimist movement is not needed at all any more, because I don't believe that.

My principal problem with the modern mainstream feminist movement is that it tends to see everything through the lense of the oppression of women, when the reality appears to me far more complicated than that.

When women get the raw end of the deal, it's due to the oppression of women and misogyny. When men get the raw end, that's also due to the oppression of women and misogyny. It's a type of one-sided fallacy where all the evidence for one particular cultural factor (oppression of women and misogyny) is emphasised and evidence of all other factors at work is dismissed or downplayed.

I also have severe reservations about the name. It seems to me to be a bait and switch - calling the movement "feminism" and simultaneously defining it to be about equality. I do understand the point. In the past especially, and to some extent now, women had a much rawer deal than men in many areas, and so working towards equality meant working on women's issues. However calling the "equality" movement "feminism" seems to be an attempt to entrench the idea, by equivocation, that "working for gender equality" = "working on women's issues". This will not always be the case, and it's not even wholly the case now.

On the other side of the coin, I *don't* think most feminists actually hate men. Calling feminists misandrists is grossly inaccurate and unhelpful. (Though to be fair, this is the flipside of the all-too-many feminists who label anything opposing their own view as "misogynist".) And there are lots of very cool, pro-equality feminist groups like the ifeminists for example (though they are a little more pro-Ayn Rand than I would like). They tend to be somewhat shunned by the mainstream feminist movement though, which is telling in itself.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby KAGU143 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:15 am

I think that "bait and switch" is a good name for what I was trying to describe.
I know that humanism already exists, but I can't think of a better name at the moment.

Sapienism, maybe?
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Olivier
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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby Olivier » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:19 pm

:roll: I would have thought Apositive could do better discussing feminism than erecting highly caricatured straw feminists and swing at them.

Complaining about "feminism" being a girly name for a movement that promotes men's rights as well is one of my pet hates. My personal rights as a man are well served by ditching centuries of patriarchal "women are inferior" bullshit. I get better doctors to look after me when half the talent isn't excluded from the training pool, and I get to be a stay at home parent with less judgemental attitudes that what I do is beneath me (which I do get, but only from people with misogynist attitudes, not misandrist ones.)

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby flergalwit » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:00 pm

Olivier wrote:Complaining about "feminism" being a girly name for a movement that promotes men's rights as well is one of my pet hates. My personal rights as a man are well served by ditching centuries of patriarchal "women are inferior" bullshit. I get better doctors to look after me when half the talent isn't excluded from the training pool, and I get to be a stay at home parent with less judgemental attitudes that what I do is beneath me (which I do get, but only from people with misogynist attitudes, not misandrist ones.)

I am fully aware I'm in very bad company in making this complaint. (No I'm not talking about anyone on apositive or AVEN for that matter.)

I also know that this type of complaint is likely to elicit a "roll-eyes... oh he's one of THOSE; go read a feminism 101 faq".

Shrugs. Those factors, while unpleasant, are not sufficient to stop me making a point if I believe it's a valid one. At least they shouldn't be. Perhaps in the past they have been. My mistake.

I'm afraid, Olivier, you completely misrepresented me. I fully agree that striving for equal rights is in all of our interests, and there is absolutely nothing I've said that could reasonably suggest otherwise. FYI I have a sister and female friends, whose well being mean more to me than anything else in the world. (OH wait, that's what the misogynists and abusive husbands say too isn't it? Drat.)

So one of your pet hates is complaints about the name feminism? Fine. One of *my* pet hates is equivocation. The name feminism carries explicit connotations of shifting the balance (of rights etc.) towards women. This is equivalent to "equality of the sexes" only insofar as shifting the balance towards women is a shift towards equality. A lot of the time - probably even most of the time - this is correct, but by no means always.

Again, equating the word "feminism" with "gender equality" entrenches the idea, by fiat, that one gender is perennially better off than the other, and that the shift towards equality is always in one direction.

It's a little like if someone decided to define "Christianity" as "the true expression of love and goodwill towards humanity". The problem with it is that the word Christianity already contains the word Christ. So the message being portrayed is that either you follow Christ or you have nothing to do with love and goodwill. Which then would presumably leave non-Christians going "er wtf? I support love and goodwill tooo! That's not what Christian means to me!"

(Incidentally my problems with mainstream feminist theory are largely intellectual, and are not due to my being a man. I'm fairly sure if I were female I'd be far more critical.)

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby Olivier » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:15 pm

I didn't mean to misrepresent you, flergalwit. As I said, my dislike of that objection is a general one, not something particular from your post - which for the most part I agree with. I just think that "feminism" the word is just a hangover from the early days of the movement when gross inequalities against women - the low hanging fruit, as it were - were the focus of the movement. On a global scale, that's still very true. To the extent that the term hails from a time when women were a man's property, I think that's history worth remembering, even if it's not pedantically literally applicable in 100% of pro-equal-gender-rights situations.

My beef mainly comes not from objections like yours, but more from when I think of all those people who for decades whinged about how it was fine for women to be called "Chairman", or "Alderman", or "Spokesman" as despite the gender clash of the word, everyone knew what those terms meant when applied to women, and now many of those same people whinge that we need a new term for feminism that men can use.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby flergalwit » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:06 am

No problem, Olivier. For what it's worth, I dislike the generic use of male words too. Another example is default male pronouns. I've been happy to see singular 'they' gain a lot of currency over the last decade or so.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby michaels » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:12 am

Everyone here is making one significant mistake: perpetuating the myth that women are still disadvantaged. In fact, in the North America I know, women very much have the upper hand now. They have higher average incomes, higher employment rates, higher enrolment levels in college, higher high school test scores, better future prospects, armies of government bureaucrats striving to discriminate in their favor against men, etc. etc. So the only reason to keep stating that women are disadvantaged--an obviously false statement--is in order to keep the flame of activism alive at all costs. Face it, feminism has totally prevailed and everyone born within the last 20 years is a feminist through simple osmosis of social mores. Is society better as a result of that? Only if you're a woman--or one of feminism's hatchet men.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby PiF » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:40 am

michaels wrote:Everyone here is making one significant mistake: perpetuating the myth that women are still disadvantaged..


I would have to disagree Michael

sure many things that were unacceptable for women have been addressed and for s small minority ..some women have learnt to play as dirty as men but..enlarge women still do achieve less of a same wage, are generally expected to stay at home with the kids or..work and look after the kids

in some respects they are disadvanted as are some men..but some grouip neing disadvantged in some way has always happened and always will

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby flergalwit » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:46 am

michaels wrote:Everyone here is making one significant mistake: perpetuating the myth that women are still disadvantaged. In fact, in the North America I know, women very much have the upper hand now.

And I think you're making the mistake that some feminists make, of treating advantage as monolithic.

Men have it better in some ways. Women have it better in other ways. That's the reality, as I see it, in the modern Western world.

Who has it better overall (again in the modern West)? That's a little difficult to judge, as quantifying and aggregating all these advantages and disadvantages over the entire population is somewhat non-trivial. My intuition says that at the end of this analysis, women still have it worse. Yours says the opposite. Fine.

But luckily it doesn't matter too much, as the *overall* levels of advantage or disadvantage is not (or should not be) the issue. We can all work towards helping women in areas they are currently disadvantaged and work towards helping men in areas they are disadvantaged. And of course ditto for trans people and/or people outside the binary.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby Lich » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:33 am

I don't know about you guys, but I just want to watch the world burn. Religion can cast itself into the void for all I care. Burn Rome, burn Mecca, burn Jerusalem, and then we're a step in the right direction. Hello, my name is Lich, and I don't believe in magical sky beings. Vote for me for Apositive Class President of 2012.

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby dornin » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:37 pm

As federal, which is quite interesting tradition. To name the most I realize, the full federal symbolic (though I still feel a bit strange '). However, the Catholics, have confidence will transsubstansiasi, where after consumption, wine and wafer become the literal body and blood of Christ. This struck me as quite disturbing.

When it comes to rituals and ceremonies of the Catholics to take a cake in there. Almost all services consisting of Catholic ritual, followed by the ritual, with minimum variance.

I will not go well, as a former atheist Christan my car has some unpleasant things to say Christianity (and religion in general, and opinionated "IST" Greybird mentioned in this case)), and I'd prefer to not step on toes -finger except for the reasons given. :clap:

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby mindlife » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:08 pm

As a Christian, I don't take issue with anything on this thread except the idea that Catholic ceremonies are "ceremonial occultism."
The word, occult refers to anything that is hidden, secret. It applies to knowledge that is restricted to a very few people and usually passed on orally.
There isn't very much that is secret about Catholic sacraments or any other type of Christian sacraments or the doctrines underlying them for that matter.
If you take the case of the Aliwite faith, or Mormonism, these institutions have doctrines that only a small group of men are allowed to know-- so the totality of the religions and cultures, where these traditions dominate, is restricted to a small elite. These practices, to me, would be two examples of "ceremonial occultism."
THE Ocean has its silent caves,
Deep, quiet and alone;
Though there be fury on the waves,
Beneath them there is none. N. Hawthorne

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Re: ceremonial occultism

Postby amyb » Thu May 16, 2013 4:33 pm

mindlife wrote:As a Christian, I don't take issue with anything on this thread except the idea that Catholic ceremonies are "ceremonial occultism."
The word, occult refers to anything that is hidden, secret. It applies to knowledge that is restricted to a very few people and usually passed on orally.
There isn't very much that is secret about Catholic sacraments or any other type of Christian sacraments or the doctrines underlying them for that matter.
If you take the case of the Aliwite faith, or Mormonism, these institutions have doctrines that only a small group of men are allowed to know-- so the totality of the religions and cultures, where these traditions dominate, is restricted to a small elite. These practices, to me, would be two examples of "ceremonial occultism."

Occultism can also refer to anything dealing with the supernatural, so I think the term fits. It wouldn't be the term I'd choose, but I still think it fits.

...don't involve the performance of active magick.

What about prayer? Why doesn't it count as magick? It's asking a supernatural entity to do your bidding.